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Question of the Day - 01 August 2023

Q:

What would you consider a winning system? 75%, 80%, 90% win rate?

A:

This question required some discussion among the experts. We tried to establish whether the percentages stand for the frequency of winning bets or the return on all bets. Given the ambiguity, we're answering both. 

Of course, unless some serious cheating is going on, winning seven, eight, or nine out of 10 bets at casino games is wildly optimistic. They'd all, obviously, be winning systems, though for square (non-cheating) players, they're all just a fantasy. 

If the question is referring to the return, the percentages are also all excellent winning-system rates. For the casinos. 

It reminds us of the Federal Reserve Bank's "optimal strategy" of holding down inflation to 2% per annum. We wonder how long an investment advisor would last issuing such advice: "Think of it! You'll lose only two percent of your money! Every year!" 

A winning system constitutes a return of more than 100%. A losing system is a return of less than 100%. Breakeven is a 100% return. Anyone who tries to convince you that a 90% return, 98% return, or 99.9999% return is a winning system would make a good central banker or politician. 

 

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Comments

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  • Kevin Lewis Aug-01-2023
    "Win rate"
    This is kind of a meaningless concept, in that how OFTEN you win is irrelevant. I can think of dozens of (hypothetical) approaches, or "systems," where you win 10% or less of your bets but you come out ahead overall. Conversely, you could have a setup where you win 90% of the time--maybe you only bet prohibitive favorites in sports--but still lose overall.
    As usual, the only way to discuss gambling systems is to refer to EV. Anything else is GIGO.

  • O2bnVegas Aug-01-2023
    not
    I've had friends interpret the "win" they read about concerning Vegas, the Strip, Downtown, whatever, to be the players' wins, as in players win this amount (or up a certain percentage) from the casinos.  Don't we wish.  I've had to explain this is the casino win statistic, not how much players win.  Good statistic for the casino industry and the city overall.  If I am right it reflects more more gambling, and of course more losing by players of their money to the casinos.
    
    Candy   

  • jay Aug-01-2023
    The fundamentals of black jack counting.
    In Blackjack the only control you have in the game is how much you bet. Playing basic strategy increases your odds of winning or at least minimizes your losses but the cards you are dealt are the cards you are dealt - you can't change that. Hit, Stand or Surrender are your decisions. 
    
    If you are counting then the fundamentals are to bet table minimum and when the count statistically changes to the players favor increase your bet. 
    
    Losing 30 hands at $10 and then winning 4 at $100 is a win rate of only 13% but generates a 25% profit.  

  • CLIFFORD Aug-01-2023
    44
    New cruise ships in the next 5 years..guaranteed 100% fun return on your money...just don't gamble.

  • CLIFFORD Aug-01-2023
    EXCEPT-maybe
    On the first day/night

  • Ray Aug-01-2023
    also "win rate"
    Kevin nailed the concept correctly. I think LVA looked at it 2 ways that the questioner didn't mean. The concept of winning that great a number of times seems ludicrous unless you're sports betting on heavy chalks and laying the odds. And the percentage of payback probably was meant to be % profit over and above your initial stake. As Kevin said, walking out a winner has to make up in dollars the amount you lose when you walk out a loser. percentages of times means nothing. Maybe instead of guessing what the questioner wanted, they should have been asked what they meant. If you spent a lot of time discussing the question, you sure came up with an oversimplified answer that probably wouldn't satisfy the questioner

  • [email protected] Aug-01-2023
    Anything More Than the Juice
    I would call whatever you are gambling on a "win" is if the amount you have netted after the wager + juice (or takeout), exceeds the total wagers. In other words, a day at the track you have a bankroll of $500 and your wagers turn into $550 at the end of the day, that's a win.

  • Kevin Rough Aug-01-2023
    I read the question differently
    I read it as how many of your gambling sessions are winners.

  • Kenneth Mytinger Aug-01-2023
    System(s)
    Can't recall exactly where I saw/heard this, but most likely from a John Patrick book.
    
    (someone mentioning to a casino manager, about someone having "a system")
    
    Manager:  "System?  We send out limos for system players!"
    

  • King of the Bovines Aug-01-2023
    It's all about the ROI...
    Good video poker, sports and horse players know that the ROI - Return on Investment - is the only true measure that needs to be considered.
    
    If I can get 10% ROI on my sports wagers, I'm doing pretty good.
    
    (I ain't going to lie.  July was not kind to me.  A negative ROI won't get the job done...)

  • David Miller Aug-01-2023
    For What It Is Worth
     I sincerely believe that there have been and still are many people who have figured out how to be very consistent winning gamblers- I also think that they have been and continue to keep their methods to themselves. Of course we may never know for sure one way or another, because they are smart enough to stay under the radar and have no need to boast or flaunt their success.

  • AL Aug-02-2023
    Could've removed unsureness
    I think the best thing that LVA/experts could've done would've been to write back to the guy (or gal?) at his/her email address and get a clarification as to what they meant. Then a clear question could've been listed, and answered appropriately. Just so you know, there are systems in which you do win over 75% of the time, but the amount of your win will be much less than the amount of your loss in the (minority) situations in which you lose. Also, systems have been invented that do NOT claim to beat the house and make a profit, but rather merely keep your loss at a minimum, usually close to the EV, which is all some gamblers want when their room is being comped and they don't want to lose too much money during their stay. I'm not talking about the Martingale (which at least has a rationale but won't always win, because you're never guaranteed to get a win within bets made up to the table limit) or systems that have no rationale at all. You can't ever ensure that you'll beat the house.