I participate on the videopoker.com forum. On this forum, there are many recreational players. Some regularly go back and forth between Double Double Bonus (DDB) and Triple Double Bonus (TDB).
The games are not the same at all. To compare them, I had to pick pay schedules. I picked the second-best pay schedule in each case: 9/6 DDB returns 98.98% when played well and 9/6 TDB returns only 98.15%.
I know some people play worse games than this. If they do, they’re on their own to figure out the strategy differences. It’s possible that this guide will serve as a reference point.
I chose the Basic Strategy levels to compare. Players who are content playing games under 99% rarely play at the Advanced Level anyway.
The items in the chart below are in no particular order. When both games play a given hand the same, there is always a similar hand given where the plays are different.
| 9/6 DDB | 9/6 TDB | |
| 2♠ 3♠ 4♥ 5♥ 2♣ | 2 2 | 2 2 |
| Same for all 4-card consecutive straights versus 22-44 | ||
| 2♠ 3♠ 4♥ 5♥ 5♣ | 5 5 | 2345 |
| Same for all consecutive straights 2345 – 789T versus 55-TT | ||
| J♠ T♠ 9♥ 8♥ 8♣ | JT98 | JT98 |
| Same for all consecutive straights KQJT-JT98 versus 88-TT | ||
| J♣ T♣ 9♣ 5♥ 5♠ | 5 5 | JT9 |
| Same with QJ9 versus any pair 55-TT except when a consecutive 4-card straight is present | ||
| Q♣ J♣ 9♣ 4♥ 4♠ | 4 4 | 4 4 |
| Same with JT9 versus any pair 22-44 | ||
| A♠ A♥ A♣ 4♦ 4♠ | A A A | A A A 4 |
| Same with 22 or 33, or non-full houses with 2, 3, or 4 | ||
| 3♠ 3♥ 3♣ 2♦ 5♠ | 3 3 3 | 3 3 3 2 |
| Same with 222 or 444 with any one or two kickers | ||
| 3♠ 3♥ 3 ♣ 2♦ 2♠ | 3 3 3 2 2 | 3 3 3 2 |
| Same with 2s full or 4s full | ||
| A♥ K♥ Q♥ Q♣ 3♦ | Q Q | A K Q |
| Same as above for AKJ, AQJ, KQJ, KQT, KJT, and QJT versus KK, QQ, or JJ | ||
| A♥ K♥ T♥ K♣ 3♦ | K K | K K |
| Same for AQT and AJT versus KK, QQ, or JJ | ||
| A♥ K♥ Q♥ J♣ J♦ | J J | A K Q |
| Same as above for AKJ, AQJ, KQJ, KQT, KJT, and QJT versus KK, QQ, or JJ | ||
| A♥ K♥ T♥ J♣ J♦ | J J | J J |
| Same for AQT and AJT versus KK, QQ, or JJ | ||
| A♣ K ♣ T♣ 9♣ 3♦ | AKT9 | AKT9 |
| Same with AQT and AJT and any fourth suited card between 2 and 9 | ||
| K♠ T♠ 5♠ 9♥ 3♣ | K T 5 | K T 5 |
| Same with any suited card to the KT in the range of 2- 8 | ||
| Q♠ T♠ 5♠ 9♥ 3♣ | Q T | Q T 5 |
| For QT, the suited extra may be in range of 2- 7. Same rule applies to JT and a suited card in the range of 2-6. | ||
| A♠ Q♥ J♣ 7♦ 3♣ | Q J | A |
| There are some exceptions to this in 9/6 DDB. There are no such exceptions in 9/6 TDB | ||
| A♥ J♣ T♣ 7♦ 3♣ | A | A |
| There are some exceptions to this in 9/6 DDB. There are no such exceptions in 9/6 TDB. | ||
| 3♥ 5♥ 9♥ 4♣ 7♦ | DRAW 5 | 3 5 9 |
| This includes all 3-card flushes in the range 23T-59T. These 3-card flushes are lower in value than any straight flush, any 4-card inside straight, and any single high card | ||
| Q♠ J♥ T♥ 7♣ 3♥ | Q J | Q J T |
| All QJT combinations are eligible to be held, except when Q and J are suited with each other. This is lower in value than QJT8. |
The above hands are different in Basic Strategy. Penalty cards do not matter much in 9/6 TDB. They only increase the expected return from 98.1524% to 98.1540%. The following hands account for about one third of that small difference.
| A♥ K♥ 3♥ 4♣ 7♦ | A K | A K |
| Including all AKx, AQx, and AJx where the x can be any suited card in the range of 2-9. | ||
| A♥ K♥ 3♥ Q♣ 7♦ | A K | A K 3 |
| Including all AKx, AQx, and AJx where the x can be any suited card in the range of 2-9, and there is exactly one unsuited, unpaired K, Q, or J in the hand. |
If you spot any hands (without including penalty cards) that I’ve missed, please let me know.
Wouldn’t 9/6 DDB be the THIRD best pay table for that game? Although rare, there is 10/6 (100.06%) and 10/6 with the downgraded straight flush to 40 (99.96%), both of which are superior to 9/6. WoO also shows a 55(SF)/9/6 version which is 99.0356%. That version I’ve never seen in any casino though.
Yes there are two versions of 10/6 DDB.
The 55-for-1 for the straight flush is found on some Scientific Games machines. Even though it returns more than the IGT 50-for-1 pay schedule, I prefer the sounds and touch of the IGT games.
Bob, Did you state that you will accept a lower payback at times for a better aesthetic? That might make for an interesting blog post. What are acceptable tradeoffs — sound, touch, chair ergonomics, front-viewing screen vs bar-top, smoking vs non-smoking, etc. — and why?
How about K♠ J♠ 9♠ A♥ Q♣ or K♠ Q♠ 9♠ A♥ J♣ (but not Q♠ J♠ 8♠ A♥ K♣)
and Q♥ 5♥ 9♥ 4♣ 7♦ or K♥ 5♥ 9♥ 4♣ 7♦?
A few 3-card flushes with a Jack like J♥ 5♥ 6♥ 4♣ 2♦ do not play differently in the two games, so that was not included above.
I’m curious too – isn’t return the most sacred part of the EV gospel? When and how do intangibles like sound, ambiance, touch etc. come into play?
I’ll take 8/5 BP all day long.
Archdeachon,
That answer is quite simple. When the lack of good aesthetics results in greater player error or reduces playing speed, which lowers the theoretical profit per hour.
“Same as above for AKJ, AQJ, KQJ, KQT, KJT, and QJT versus KK, QQ, or JJ”
Not exactly.
In 9/6 DDB, for the hand like J♥ Q♥ K♥ Q♣ 8♦ you hold suited JQK instead of QQ. (This is the same as 9/6 TDB.)
“Players who are content playing games under 99% rarely play at the Advanced Level anyway.”
Absolutely not true.
OT. I was playing STP ten-play DDB for quarters this week when I was dealt four threes. This is worth $1000 without kickers. Would it be better to just save all five cards to avoid the tax form? The expected return is about $1250. I decided to go for kickers and got three. I paid a $5 tip for the handpay. What would you have done?
Jerry… what’s wrong with getting a W-2G? You are, of course, reporting all your gaming winnings. Everyone does. lol
Hop Hoofer : You are correct in your KQJ suited with neither a straight nor flush penalty being better than KK in 9/6 DDB. This is one of the many penalty card situations that I intentionally left out of the discussion. As a group, they are not worth much IN THIS GAME. In certain other games, they are worth more.
Insofar as few players playing games less than 99% use an advanced strategy — I strongly believe that is true and I heard you when you disagreed with that.
The main reason behind my argument is that most of the players who correctly use an advanced strategy are strong players. They play to win. These players rarely play games less than 99%, because it’s relatively rare when slot clubs and promotions make a game that returns that little beatable. Most players who play games less than 99% are not strong players.
If you strongly agree with this assessment, then that probably means that YOU study and use advanced strategies. Good for you. But I think you’re in the minority.
9/6 DDB is barely under 99% (98.98%). And the penalty card situations in that game are few and relatively easy. There will be some players using advanced strategy here. But in lower-returning games, especially those that pay 5-for-1 for the flush (like 9/5 JoB or 9/5 DDB or 9/5 TDB), the advanced strategy is MUCH more difficult than it is for games that pay 6-for-1 for the flush. The combination of tough strategies and not-so-strong players playing these games makes it an easy conclusion that few of these players use such a strong strategy.
“Strong players” don’t need players cards or promotions to beat video poker. “Strong players find the huge edge plays. Not the barely over 100% ones. I put those that play like Bob (not that there is anything wrong with it) in what JG calls the card counter sect, “salamanders”.
@Bob Thank you very much for the clarification.
For those who don’t know about this rule for 9/6 TDB – J♣ T♣ 9♣ 5♥ 5♠ (also for pair of 5, 6 or 7. For pair of 8 in this scenario, go for the open-end straight. For low pairs, hold low pairs since they give you premium quads.) This is because holding low pair 5 you get only 2 for 1 on 3 of a kind, neither straight, flushes nor straight flushes. While holding suited 9TJ, you get 1 high card, more straights, flushes, and straight flushes. So overall going for 3 suited SF with 1 high card and 0 gaps is much better than holding a pair of 5, 6, or 7.