I rarely play two video poker machines at once. One exception is when the South Point runs their “Money Madness” promotion, where they have a casino-wide progressive that must hit between $10,000 and $25,000 (along with a smaller progressive as well.)
If you’re playing and somebody else hits the progressive, which is usually going to be the case, you still get $25 in free play as a consolation prize. So, playing on both my card and Bonnie’s doubles my chances for that $25 bonus. And if the game I’m playing generates relatively frequent W2Gs, that’s all the more reason to want a second machine.
One of those situations occurred last February 19, which was Presidents’ Day, and the casino was offering 2x points, which was worth 0.6% there. Other casinos were offering 6x points, which amounts to the same thing, but the South Point has a bigger variety of better games to play.
I got there about 2 a.m., planning on playing twelve or so hours if I could. When I was younger, I planned on longer shifts, but only being able to play twelve hours at a time now is hardly the biggest compromise I’ve had to make as a senior citizen.
There are several acceptable games to play on such a day. One of them is Ultimate X where they have two 25¢ Ten Play machines. It’s a lucrative pay schedule, but it’s $25-per-pull price tag and sky-high volatility makes it more expensive than many players wish to tackle. Still, they are popular machines with many players playing 5¢ or 10¢ variations which have considerably lesser pay schedules.
About 15 minutes into me playing both machines, a guy who I’ll call Ed, said, “You’re not really planning on playing both of those all night, are you?”
That’s not at all the same as saying, “May I play one of those machines?” to which my answer was always going to be, “Of course.” I appreciate that the South Point sponsors both my podcast and my classes and quite simply I’m not going to get into any argument on the floor that might encourage the bosses to conclude that I’m too much trouble.
Whether Ed’s question met my definition as a proper request, it’s possible he meant it as such. I asked him if he wanted to play one and he nodded, so I picked the machine on which I wished to continue, played off my multipliers on the other, cashed out, and consolidated.
After some initial pleasantries, I went back to playing my machine. Although I can play quite a few different games at a high level, one price of playing so many is that if I don’t concentrate on what I’m doing, I can easily get the strategies mixed up.
Ed, however, liked to talk.
Talk, talk, talk, talk, talk.
Soon after he got there, somebody nearby got a jackpot, so there were extra casino workers around. He asked anybody who was listening whether they heard about the actress who stabbed her husband that morning? Nobody had heard. Ed said he thinks it was “Reese somebody.” The floorman ventured “Witherspoon?” Ed replied, “No silly. With her knife!”
Did I mention he never shut up?
After the initial couple of minutes, I simply hunkered down in front of the machine and ignored everything he said. He’d ask direct questions, such as, “Why did you play the hand that way?” or “I heard it was your birthday last week. Anything interesting happen?” or “Have you had any big jackpots on these machines?” I didn’t respond to any of these. I couldn’t make him shut up, but if I didn’t answer back, perhaps he’d take the hint after an hour or three.
He decided to tell me about a recent situation when he played two machines simultaneously at a casino in Laughlin. There was a hot seat promotion, where $100 in free play is awarded randomly every so many minutes, and he was playing on both his card and his wife’s card, even though she was 100 miles away.
He was asked to give up one of the machines and he said he was holding one for his wife. The player was persistent, but Ed wouldn’t budge. The player went to the shift manager, who came back and said that house policy was that you could only play one machine at a time if somebody else wished to play one. Ed’s name was now recorded by the casino and if this happens again, he will be restricted from the club.
So, Ed moved over and let the other player have one of the machines. The player inserted $5, played one hand, lost, and then stood up and told Ed, “That’s my limit. You can have the machine back again.”
“You went to all that trouble and you only wanted to play five dollars?” Ed’s voice became animated. Even so, I kept playing my machine without comment.
“This guy screwed me!” Ed ranted. “Five lousy dollars was all he wanted to play and now the casino has my name down as a trouble maker. It’s so unfair!”
While I was NOT going to discuss it with Ed at the time, which would have kept him going for another hour or two protesting how he got screwed, I think Ed brought it on himself.
He lied to keep an extra machine, basically taking a shot. Sometimes when you take a shot, things backfire. That’s what happened here.
You cannot wait until everything plays out and then demand a Mulligan in order to try again. You have to make your decisions before you know exactly what’s going to happen.
And if your decision turns out badly? Well sometimes gambling works that way and sometimes life works that way. Nobody screwed him. I think the phrase, “Hoist on his own petard!” is apt here. And since he wouldn’t shut up, I can’t say I felt sorry for him at all!
Reminds me of the time I was playing at the lowest limit bj table in the casino. I was playing well above the minimum. Why at this table? Favorable dealer. Table was full and this guy wanted a seat. He keep bugging me to get up and let him play. ‘That seat means more to me than you’, he said. ‘You can play at any table’. This went on until a seat opened. He played one hand at minimum and left.
I always bring headphones for video poker play to shut out motor mouths or players who have to let everyone know they hit quads by letting the a loud machine pay for an entire payout payout rather than playing the next hand.
Yes a talkative stranger on a game you need to concentrate can really screw you up. I hate to act rude but people just do not seem to get it. I think headphones are the best resolution just put them on and do not even play any music as I lose concentration if music is playing. Thanks for sharing
I have actually wondered what would I say to you if our paths ever crossed. Assuming that I could over come shyness (and/or hero worship), I would really want to thank you. I have been playing VP for about 12 years now and I started with your advice. I have read all your books, and carry your laminated cards with me to every casino — still.
I have had the seat next to a chatty or flirty fellow a few times. Politeness seldom discourages such a personality!
There is a common opening comment: I am dealt 3 high cards of unmatched suits playing Bonus Poker. One is an ace and I do not hold it. “Oh honey, you forgot to hold your ace.” or “If you had held that ace, it would have hit.”
I smile and say “Thank you.” Somehow that unsolicited ace advice opens the flood gates of a VP tutorial. I have heard some of the most outrageous superstitions and “inside” secrets.
Thanks for another interesting column.
PS; Is there anyone else here who is becoming completely disenchanted with the Caesar’s players club? My Seven Stars perks shrivel monthly. In Vegas, full pay machines are $25. or $50. per tier point. I think I have found a new “favorite” casino and Caesar’s is seeing less and less of my play.
I have actually wondered what would I say to you if our paths ever crossed. Assuming that I could over come shyness (and/or hero worship), I would really want to thank you. I have been playing VP for about 12 years now and I started with your advice. I have read all your books, and carry your laminated cards with me to every casino — still.
———————————
If you want to take a few minutes to say hello, whether you’re a pretty woman or not, I’ll chat with you for a little. I understand that I’m a low-level “celebrity” of sorts and sometimes people want to say hi. That’s fine.
But if we’re not close friends, I’ll let you know after a couple of minutes as graciously as I can that I need to concentrate. Most people take the hint. This particular article was about a guy would wouldn’t take that hint.
Since this has kinda turned into a sound-off about annoying ‘neighbors’ in the casino, mine is the one who has to regale me with tales of their (or their spouse’s) previous wins. Hey, I have hit some nice jackpots myself over the years, but I don’t bore others about them. I’ll certainly congratulate a person who hits a jackpot next to me, but otherwise keep the ancient history stuff to yourself, because I really don’t care…especially when I’m on a losing streak…LOL.
For Paul, the person who said music distracts him from concentrating: There is “music” out there that is not melodic or otherwise engaging, but is rather just soothing noise, and thus shouldn’t be distracting. I don’t know what category it would be under; maybe “background” or “industrial”? But it exists.
For Bob Dancer, about your only wanting to have a quick chat with any fan or customer: Why not establish a “1-minute-chat” rule? Establish it, publicize it, and then when talked to by a fan, say “I can chat with you for just a minute” with a smile. Some folks will go over that 1-minute limit, but if they stop within 2 minutes, I would consider that to be okay. If they don’t stop after 2 minutes, then you could “pull the plug” on the conversation.
I think the background music you may be thinking of is called “ambient”. “Industrial” would definitely not be conducive to concentrating.
I NEVER play two machines when there are a limited number of such machines (a game like Ultimate X and/or one with good pay schedules) in the casino. Yeah, you can delude yourself by saying, “Well, if anyone wants this second machine, they can ask me, and I’ll be happy to give it up.” But are they going to ask, people like Ed aside? No! Most persons will see you hammering away at the two machines, brow furrowed in concentration, and won’t bother you. A large portion of the time, the person won’t feel entitled to ask and/or may not be aware of any “one machine to a player” rule.
I don’t feel entitled to be taking up two machines unless the casino is deserted and i can be certain I’m not shutting anyone out. Even then, I would only play on my own player’s card, in both machines. Playing with someone else’s card–even your spouse’s–is borderline angle shooting and certainly violates the spirit of any promo based on “people actually in the casino and playing when the whatever happens.” It’s just an ethical boundary for me, and not necessarily applicable to anyone else.
As far as chatty people go, I politely but firmly ask the person not to talk to me “because I’m just learning this game and make a lot of mistakes if I’m not concentrating.” Saying nothing is taken by a talkative person as implied consent to go on blathering. Interesting, though, that most people would consider it perfectly acceptable to curtly tell an annoying person not to talk to you but you can’t ask a smoker to stop blowing crap in your face. Last week, I had a smoker call security on me BECAUSE I WAS WAVING HIS SMOKE AWAY FROM MY FACE. Bottom line, people are annoying and the ideal place to play would be a hermetically sealed, soundproof bubble. With a sliding drawer for cocktails, of course.
“I don’t feel entitled to be taking up two
machines unless the casino is deserted
and i can be certain I’m not shutting anyone out.”
Well, isn’t that special!
“Playing with someone else’s card-even your
spouse’s- certainly violates the spirit of any
promo. It’s just an ethical boundary for me”
Advantage play itself violates the spirit of the the entire casino’s operation. The only reason a casino exists and can exist is if players play with a negative EV.
As I said, PJ, it’s just an ethical boundary for ME. No need for the snark. And you misquoted me–I referred to promos specifically wherein your presence in the casino when something happens gets you a prize. Masquerading as two people by playing two machines with two different player’s cards is something I wouldn’t do–but again, that’s MY take on it.
The distinction you’re missing is that advantage play almost never violates the casino’s rules, written or implied. A player playing a VP machine or blackjack well is not playing it any differently from anyone else, except he/she is making better decisions. There’s no rule against that.
“Advantage play almost never violates the casino’s rules, written or implied. … A player [ed. i.e. an AP] playing a VP machine or blackjack well is not playing it any differently from anyone else.”
——————————-
Then why are APs “backed-off” “trespassed” “banned” or “taken into the back room and beaten-up?” APs must be doing something wrong in the opinion of the casinos, i.e. violating the “spirit” of the rules and doing so in such an egregious manner that the casinos believe that the practice, if it isn’t suppressed, poses an existential threat to the industry.
Because they are sore losers, that’s why.
No. In the first place, the sanctions against a player, AP or otherwise, almost never go beyond barring from the property and often fall well short of that. And an AP isn’t barred from playing for violating the rules–that would be cheating, and the police would be involved. An AP is barred when the casino, using its right to refuse service to anyone, perceives (correctly or incorrectly) that that person will be a consistent winner and decides therefore to not allow him to play. It isn’t a matter of “an existential threat to the industry.” It’s simply denying service to a customer the casino deems undesirable.
It’s a ludicrous comparison, perhaps, but imagine a customer who eats so much at the buffet that the casino loses a substantial sum of money every time he comes in. The casino might bar him from the buffet, because he’s an undesirable customer who costs the casino money. Or, they might bar him from the casino altogether. Even though he has broken no actual rule.
“ideal place to play would be a hermetically sealed, soundproof bubble. With a sliding drawer for cocktails, of course.”
———————————————————
Something similar became public in a minor scandal years ago when William J. Bennett who was a Secretary of Education, “drug czar,” and self-righteous critic who inveighed against the moral decline in America in speeches, TV appearances and in books like “Moral Compass: Stories for a Life’s Journey.”
When Bennett made frequent trips to Vegas to indulge in his passion for gambling, he had video poker or slot machines put in his hotel room along with (I kid you not) cocktail waitresses standing by to serve him. When the news broke about how he was spending his free time, he said he would no longer do this.
“because I’m just learning this game and make a lot of mistakes if I’m not concentrating.”
——————————————————
I would not use this response. It’s an invitation to be “helped” for an indeterminate period of time.
Bob Dancer could carry with him one of those little plastic 60 second hour glasses. LOL
For Mary Ann, I’m not Seven Stars, but I feel your pain. I remember back in the day (admittedly before Seven Stars was implemented) when Diamond meant Diamond all year. Now, when weeks pass during which I don’t gamble at a CET property my offers shrivel fast. Free Play drops drastically (like from $300 to $25; hotel options fewer. Now a Diamond has to have earned more points than the year end requirement to have free Diamond Lounge access (which wasn’t announced until the last minute in 2017). So there went that perk. Though they must have gotten a lot of flak, as they quickly announced some extension of DL access.
I understand, it is about supply and demand. There is just only so much acreage in which to cram people. I suspect you are seeing the same effect…7* crowding. CET is all about how much you play THIS MONTH. Drop your play and we drop the royal treatment you got used to for a few minutes. Good luck, hope it improves for you.
A video poker player next to you that constantly talks to you is not an advantage player, so the hell with them.
In the early days of blackjack card counting, casinos would look for players hunched over, staring at the cards, furrowed brows, etc. To be successful you had to keep the count but look nonchalant. Joke with the dealer, joke with the pit boss, occasionally chat with the player next to you. That really took skill.
An advantage player next to you will say “hi” and ask how you are doing. They will occasionally watch your play and you will watch their play. After ten minutes, you will make a comment to them. After ten minutes, they will make another comment to you.
Dice, blackjack, video poker – advantage players know each other and recognize each other. There is mutual respect. Rarely, you will be having one of those wonderful nights. You are winning, feeling good, the casino is bright and exciting, the advantage player next to you is feeling the same way.
But that is pretty rare. Most of the time, you are concentrating on your game.
Most of the time, you are not having fun.
Bob Dancer has truthfully stated that most of the time playing video poker is tedious and exhausting. Chit chat just doesn’t fit in.
This guy was a pretty good player. At least a semi-AP. Some APs are talkers.
I really disagree with your “the hell with them” comment. Players is all abilities deserve more respect than that.
All gamblers think they are “advantage players”, meaning they think they have an edge. I see six classes:
1. Gamblers like Dancer who have the edge but won way more than average
2. Gamblers who have the edge but won way less than average or even lost because they didn’t play enough or ran out of money
3. Gamblers who think they have the edge but don’t in reality or no longer have the edge they had when they were younger, but they still won because they got lucky
4. Gamblers who think they have the edge but don’t in reality or no longer have the edge and lost
5. Gamblers who don’t have the edge, probably are completely ignorant of what “edge” means, but still won because they got lucky
6. Gamblers who don’t have the edge, probably are completely ignorant of what “edge” means and lost
It’s very difficult to tell what class a particular gambler belongs in, they might claim membership in a particular class but they might be bluffing or simply misjudge their own status. Two “advantage gamblers” might sit down at a blackjack table, one’s a counter, the other’s a hole carder. The hole carder might be able to tell or suspect that the other is a counter, but the counter is probably ignorant of hole carding and thinks the other is a moron since he doesn’t even play by the book. It’s also quite likely that the counter actually has no edge because they don’t understand penetration or any number of other subtleties. They both might win and get backed off, it means nothing other than they both won. They both might lose, again it means nothing other than they both lost this particular session.
And, mathematically speaking, we can never be 100% sure that even Dancer always has the edge. I’m willing to believe he knows all the maxEV strategies cold including penalty cards, but that’s not the same thing as playing in a casino environment and never making a mistake. And technically, there is no such thing as “playing enough”, there is always some chance of losing even if you actually have an edge, just as there is always some chance of Risk of Ruin of running out of money even if you actually have an edge. The Kelly system is one way around that last restriction, when Kelly is done correctly there is zero chance of losing all your money, however you can get left with only a residual remaining that is too small for the available games.
Thank you for your comment, Liz. Your comment has provided me with enough fodder for an entirely new column which you’ll see in a month or so.
cancer