According to Wikipedia, “The Golden Rule is the principle of treating others as one wants to be treated. It is a maxim that is found in most religions and cultures. It can be considered an ethic of reciprocity in some religions, although different religions treat it differently.”
I’m not here to debate religion. Consider, however, the following:
- A juicy promotion begins at midnight. There are only a few machines that pay well during that promotion. This means only a very few players will get to play the good machines during the promotion, and most will be shut out. You get to one of those machines at 6 p.m. and play the machine slowly. This guarantees you will get to play the desirable machine and others won’t. After midnight you play much faster.
- Perhaps the same situation as above, perhaps a different one. You make a deal with another player to “take over” your machine while you sleep, and then give it back to you. Eight to ten hours later, you return the favor. This keeps the machine “in the family,” and others who want to play it, can’t.
- It’s a drawing with physical tickets. You’re a proponent of the theory that folding the tickets before putting them into the barrel gives you a better-than-strictly-random chance to win. But anything that increases the odds in your favor, decreases the odds of other players.
- A restaurant where you get comped meals has the policy that on your birthday, you get a free piece of Death by Chocolate cake, with forks for everybody else in your party so you can share. You claim about four birthdays a year at each restaurant that has a policy like this. This dishonesty reduces the profits of the restaurant owner for your benefit.
- At one casino, playing $20,000 coin-in a month maximizes the benefits you receive. You obtain ten multiple IDs and have a player’s card in each of them. This way, you can get far more benefits from this casino than the casino had designed.
- A casino ends a multiple point promotion at midnight, but so long as your card is inserted prior to midnight and remains inserted, you continue to get multiple points long after the promotion is intended to conclude.
- You believe that casinos are sleazy organizations and don’t deserve to be treated honestly. So, you look for ways to cheat them.
- Someone has left $20 worth of credits on a machine. You insert a $100 bill into the machine, play a few hands, and cash out for $115.
- There are only a few “good” machines available on a progressive bank. You want them for your friends. So you bring out foul smelling cigars and begin to smoke them in the vicinity. When other players leave in disgust, your friends sit down, and nobody smokes anymore.
- A floor supervisor taps you on the shoulder and asks if the $100 bill on the floor behind you belongs to you. In truth, you have no way of knowing. But your answer is, of course, “It must be. I pulled money out of my pocket and must have dropped that one. Thank you!”
- You’re too sick to go to work and expose people you know to your illness, but not too sick to go to a casino and expose strangers.
- You are dealt three aces and hold them, except you know you didn’t hold the third ace firmly. You draw the fourth ace, but the third ace “unholds.” Even though you know it’s your own fault, you call the slot supervisor over anyway and complain about stick buttons.
I could provide other examples, as could you, but you get the idea. I’ve been “guilty” of eight out of the 12 examples above, at least occasionally. And sometimes, once upon a time but not for years.
I consider myself a moral person. Do any or all of these types of behavior conflict with the Golden Rule?
On some of these things, like pretending it’s my birthday when it’s not, I can’t ethically justify — and yet I’ve done it.
On things like getting to a machine early to guarantee I’ll have a chance to play during the promotion is something I expect other strong players to do. I understand that others will be doing it so if I’m going to prosper in this business, I need to do it myself — only slightly earlier than they do it. I see it as akin to making a dinner reservation so when I get there at 7 p.m., a table is waiting for me. I believe there is nothing ethically wrong with this at all, and I understand that not everybody feels this way — especially those who didn’t plan ahead.
I don’t expect all of us to agree whether an individual action is right or wrong, but I think it’s a useful exercise to contemplate these things periodically.
#3…oh, please…gimme a break. I’m there to put my ticket in and maybe win, not to increase the odds of winning for other players.
I have a special ire for people who do #11. The last very nasty flu I got was shortly after a sick person sneezed while standing over me while I played Bonus Poker. That put me down for a week.
I understand that for people who play to pay the rent, not playing means no income, but you should calculate the needed EV to accommodate the fact that you will have “unexpected” no play days.
And if you’re playing a negative EV game, there really is no excuse for hitting a casino while [knowingly] sick.
#2: Pros who lock up seats like that and trade back and forth should just be barred. It’s bad for business to deny these seats to the regular customers. Annoying the customers is way worse for the casino then whatever winning you manage to do.
“Sqatters rights” are BS. The casino owns the machine and the seat, not the player who is playing there, and the player has no right to give it to another player. If I was waiting for a seat and a known AP tried to give it to a friend who arrived after me you had better believe that I’d be complaining to the management that the pros are preventing the real customers from playing. Gee, I wonder whose side they would take.
Nonsense like this is why certain players are not welcome to play in many places. You need to learn how to ply your trade without being too bad for business.
Apparently a lot of people abide by the phrase “rules are made to be broken” – I don’t and never have. I believe that if one can not or refuses to abide by the rules, they should not participate. Those who live their lives not believing this are, in my opinion, the problem and the cause for many of the problems society has today. I am sure some will disagree – they never will get it. Don’t believe me, then look around you at those you come into contact with – or, better yet, look into a mirror. Try being honest with yourself – you might be surprised at what you discover. I will now step off of my soapbox and await the maelstrom of dissent…
I have never done any of these.
Bob, apparently you abide by a different “Golden Rule”…”he who has the gold, rules”. Perhaps these examples are a “confession” of sorts, because you are feeling mortal?
10 separate IDs to screw over the customer base. Please, this kind of behavior very much reflects on the character of the person doing it. It’s a fraud pure and simple.
I draw the line at lying to or deceiving others, even if it’s a casino.
So with that said, the only ones I would personally do would be #s 1-3, and possibly #6, though #6 is kinda shady.
The others I would absolutely consider to be completely scummy and I would not want to associate myself with anyone who would do that.
DB confesses to some of his “cheats”.
Yawn!!
Bob, I personally enjoy your ethical dilemma questions, but remember the backlash you took when you admitted to stealing breakfast buffets? This is going to be more of the same. I can respect it if you just want to be a little controversial to drum up readership for the article, but don’t be surprised if people think it’s weird that you admit to ripping off restaurants for a twelve dollar piece of chocolate cake when you’re already a millionaire
I have pointed out numerous mistakes, made by banks, auto stores, and restaurants that are in my favor, but never received a discount, air fresher, or even just a thank you. But make a mistake, you get charged overdraft fee, charged for a extra day on a car rental, or given an “oh well” nothing we can do about it.
I once busted an employee at a major book store chain who was scamming gift cards who only put half the money I gave her on the card and kept the rest. The manager put off by it and said “what more do you, you got your money. I want that employee’s head on a stick.
Some of these behaviors do conflict with the golden rule. I’ve only done 1 out of the 12, #8 but it wasn’t $20 left in the machine and instead of putting in extra cash I just hit the ticket button and cashed out at the cage. It’s always nice finding a little something left over on a machine that someone didn’t cash out. One time I found a female wallet while playing next to a machine and the thought of keeping the wallet crossed my mind for a split second but there was an empty blackjack table with a female dealer looking right at me and it seemed as if she noticed the wallet I was looking at wasn’t mine. I picked the wallet up and gave it to the pit. There’s been plenty of times where I’ve used tobacco products in the poker room and the vast majority of the time nobody says anything, I make the casino do their job when it comes to that rule because I feel like I’m being discriminated against by the house. Then I’ll smoke some grass up in the hotel room and turn on the hot shower to help mask the smell while putting a towel at the bottom of the door where the crack is to hinder the smell from going out into the hall way.
Businessess work like that. They buy something for 1 dollar and try to sell that product at 2 dollars. Although, they have expenses and risks too,, it’s a question of whether this is perfectly ok. Of course it is. Groceries’ stores are not selling products with expiration dates expired by extending it, but it happened and will probably happen all over the world by puttin new expiration dates on certain items. This is then no longer acceptable, but its common.
In gambling, it happens all the time although a casino is trying everything not to do anything which would be against the law because it would risk its license and operation or high penalty fines. Desperate gamblers are trying to walk the thin line when they run out of cash and don’t know how to get through the month. Eventually, some, yet not all of them, will be caught and sent off the facility. There’s a “grey zone” in which you can maneouvre but still will not be kicked out. Using 20 different ID’s and players card just to squeeze out the additional free play and make a living from it is common technique which I as a regular tourist have become aware of. There’s a guy who perates at Santa Fee Station and some other locals casinos I have become aware of, I’ve seen him doing it for years now. Interesting that no surveillance operator has gotten his eyes on him. Taking an extra banana from the buffet may be forbidden, but nobody probably will land in prison for doing that.
I’ve found a crunchy 100 dollar bill on a chevron station the other night, some years back. Of course I picked it up and put it in my pocket. I felt guilty after that but had I given it o the guy inside the shop he would’ve kept it for his own. And I have also disrespected some of the Golden Rules mentioned by Mr Bob Dancer above. Haven’t we all? Hey, in a way, it’s part of the game. The thing is not to go too far and swim along with the other fish in the ocean, right?
There are people that on purpose slow down live poker games when the action is on them, they dither and delay, hoping others will get frustrated and act out of turn. Poker is about reading the other players, setting up ranges of hands, delaying the game on purpose is a manipulation. Whenever I see it, usually it’s the same losers who violate this rule, I report it live to management. Some people have mental issues that cause them to think that moment when the other players are waiting for them to act is their 15 minutes of fame, their time in the spotlight. If you see people doing this, report them, management needs to be made aware of people trying to gain an edge through delay…
Michael I wouldn’t call the poker host on a slow player taking his time when there is a house dealer right at the table who is managing the game. If you want to make an enemy at the poker table just shout out loudly, CLOCK!!! Every time you get slow rolled by the same player just shout out CLOCK!!! That way you’re playing his/her game and turning the tables right around on your opponent and their strategy of potentially getting someone to act out of turn in later positions who have yet to act. Poker doesn’t have to be a friendly game.
I wish the dealers policed the games better, I only turn to floor management when it is done serially with purpose. Everyone is entitled to a reasonable amount of time to act, and reasonable can be stretched pretty far. The casino wants more hands dealt and less interpersonal strife, so they usually appreciate it when people point out others attempting to gain an edge unethically…
The poker dealers definitely want more hands dealt because a slow player can hurt the dealers tokes. It behooves the dealer to keep the game running smoothly. For players who habitually take a long time to act I don’t think they’re getting an edge, but I do think they’re looking for a poker tell in late position to see if a player is not paying attention by acting out of turn and to figure out hand strength which could determine where they’re at in the hand.
There is nothing wrong with using the tactic you describe, assuming you are NOT slowing up the game significantly. A good player plays about 20-25% of hands at a full table. If this tactic is used 1/3rd of the time they play a hand, you are talking about 8% x 35 hands / hour = 3 hands per hour…… That’s what bothers you in poker???
It always amazes me how delusional some smokers become after they have lost their sense of taste and smell. The first non-smoker that walks into the room you were being so clever about smoking in will know instantly that you were smoking. Many hotels charge a substantial cleaning fee for smoking in a non-smoking room. If you lit up in a non-smoking poker room I would have the room manager called over before you could exhale your first drag. Using the word “discrimination” when it involves toxic byproducts is laughable.
Every U.S. poker room I’ve ever played in has been a non-smoking poker room. I ignore the poker room rules on purpose because from my understanding the house doesn’t really care what happens in the poker room, the poker room will police itself. If anyone ever says anything about it I say, it’s a casino! They may fire back by saying, hey there is a sign over there that says no smoking! My response to such would be I didn’t see the sign and this is a casino, tobacco products are allowed.
Bob, if we both were sitting at the same poker table in a non-smoking poker room and if I knew it was you I would light up a cigarette right at the table because I know it would get under your skin and irritate you. Making you upset may get you off your game and that seems to be an effective strategy at poker sometimes. Why allow me to change your emotions in a negative way at the table for something I did? It’s the dealers job to say something, not yours. Knowing how liberal Las Vegas is if I were out there and someone complained I would play the woke card and say it’s not a cigarette, it’s a cig man!
You may get me off The game but you wouldn’t get me off My game. If the room staff won’t enforce their own rules I’m gone. I enjoy playing poker recreationally particularly because the rooms have been non-smoking for years.
I would never try to make you leave a poker game Bob. That’s cash leaving the game and I wouldn’t want that. Someone has complained about my tobacco use at the table before and the dealer did make me get rid of it but it’s not like I stopped being me. If there is a gray area and I can bend the rules my way that’s what I’m going to do. It doesn’t matter to me if the poker rooms are smoking or non-smoking and I’ve never played in a corporate poker room that allowed tobacco use.
What does this have to do with the article???
#9
Most would be unethical but prom not immoral. There have been professionals hogging machines while visitors cannot get to them. Steve Wynn tried reasonable vp when they opened. He said professials hogged the machines therefore Wynn is what it is now. You yourself said a friend told you this prof play was going to bite you in the ass. Your words. It has bitten visitors and locals a lot more. You have made your money. What do we have? Shitty pay tables. I am not a friend who gives you a glowing report. Prof players has ruined video poker for us. You still go play crappy pay tables and get you gifts and free play. back. We don’t. Another person rants about her wins. I checked Cherokee NC casino and do not see those pay tables. I would say enough is enough. Trying to see who is biggest liar. Fisherman or gamblers
Paul.A, what amount of time is o.k. with you so one player can shoot angles. Your full table has 9 or 10 people, if it`s o.k. with one player wasting everyone`s time (to compensate for his poor play, probably) , then there will be several players who do it. Now the game slows way down and then breaks up. Angle shooter moves to new table. Poker is slow enough, you`re lucky to see 25 hands an hour on average, all slow players shooting angles or not are killing the game. Everybody loses, players, dealers, and house. CLOCK
I can’t stand it when these “super pros” in the 1-2 or 1-3 nol game constantly keep eyeing me and asking me ridiculous questions and contemplating the call whenever I make the final bet on the river and it’s not yet showdown time , hence, wasting minutes of time thinking before finally folding the hand anyway. This is the most insulting technique somebody can do and whenever I witness such behavior and then there’s finally the call, and the guy still loses, then it makes me happy because I see that all the time wasting was useless and the decision the guy did was still wrong.
From Switzerland
Boris
I feel 8-10 seconds is fine. Of course, this is more significant in No-Limit. Not sure if you have recently played no limit, but my local poker rooms are cranking out 35-40 hands an hour.
I saw a guy ‘check’ his hand 5 times after the dealer put out the flop yesterday because he didn’t know when the action was on him, and when it wasn’t ,same guy acted out of turn 3 times in one hour, had to be warned by the dealer to NOT react to the flop after he folded (have you ever seen that??) So if This guy is to my left and I can gain a little info once in a while by delaying 4-8 seconds and making him think the action is on him to see if he is going to bet/call/fold because HE is TOO STUPID to follow the action I don’t feel there is an issue. I don’t delay the game by forgetting to post my blind, or playing on my phone, or hollywooding, or not following the action, so if I actually USE my ‘allotted’ game-delay time to potentially profit here or there, no big deal to me. It’s the people who are delaying the game by * acting out of turn because they didn’t hear there was a straddle, or * watching a sporting event when it is their turn, or * ordering a burger/cocktail/massage instead of acting on their hand that cause most delays. People probably wouldn’t even notice. This is something to USE, not ABUSE.
All table games are too slow for me.
Pretending it’s your birthday when it’s not just to get a free piece of cake?
Wow.
Saddest “Advantage Play” ever.
Guilty of too many to admit. Advantage Player means bending the rules in your favor. I am probably morally bankrupt, but I go to the casino to make money. I wish I knew how good that free dessert was….somebody convince me it is heavenly and let me know they have it at Hugo’s Cellar. See you soon.
I don’t believe that items 1,3,and 6 are unethical; I have a problem with the rest of them.
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