I was walking through Sam’s Town here in Las Vegas on a Tuesday in June. The casino offers 10x points (worth 0.5%) for seniors on Tuesdays and I was scouting the place looking to see if anything might be of interest. Even after all these years, scouting is part of my routine.
I’ve been restricted from receiving mailers for more than a decade at all Boyd properties (including Sam’s Town), so anything I find has to be good enough by itself to be worthwhile, because there won’t be additional benefits coming down the road.
I came across a 50¢ (actually it was for quarters, but you had to bet 10 of them) 9/5 Double Double Bonus Poker bank where the progressive was at $4,600.
This is a pretty high number, given the royal starts at $2,000. As a general rule of thumb, 1,000 coins added to the royal adds about a half percent. This was 5,200 extra coins on a game that starts out at 97.8% approximately. I was sure the game was positive with no slot club at all, but on a day with a 0.5% club, it was clearly a good play.
I know the strategy approximately, but not exactly. I have not played this game with such a high progressive for some time, but I was aware of many of the adjustments. There was only one seat open on the bank of 10 machines, so if I wanted to have the option of playing this, I had to sit down now immediately. Which I did. If, after contemplation, I decided not to play the game I could always leave. But the seat would likely not remain open if I thought about it while standing up.
My problem was that I hadn’t played video poker for $2.50 a game or less for a couple of decades! No matter how positive the game is at these stakes, this is not the game I wish to be playing.
Some people can go back and forth between denominations easily enough, but there is a psychological aspect to it as well. Playing this game for $5 coins would have been interesting to me. Playing it for 50¢ coins, not so much.
Still, I regularly play dollar games these days, which I didn’t do a few years ago. Simply put, my welcome at casinos isn’t universal and the casinos with good $5 and higher games in Las Vegas are mostly not interested in my action. Since there are some good dollar games around, I play them.
Also, sometimes I play slots for 75¢ or 80¢ a hand, although usually faster than I play video poker. That isn’t the first denomination I seek out, but sometimes that’s where the advantage is this time. So, if I sometimes play for these stakes, clearly $2.50 a hand is not beneath me.
I found myself hoping nobody I knew saw me playing these stakes. They might conclude “Bob lost all his bankroll and now must play for lower stakes,” which isn’t the case at all. My initial feeling was one of embarrassment. Nobody spoke to me in a way that indicated they recognized me. But I’m writing about it here, so obviously I no longer feel the need to keep it a secret.
One man two seats down from me kept looking at me as though he might recognize me. (I didn’t recognize him, but more than 100,000 students have gone through one or more of my classes over the past 30+ years and I don’t recognize them all.) Possibly, he thought it was me but wasn’t sure. Possibly, he remembered me from somewhere and couldn’t figure out how he knew me. I was basically silent, so I didn’t give away clues that way.
As I was pounding away, the players around me were different from what I was used to. When I’m playing a positive game, I’m looking to play quickly — because time is money. Among strong players, this behavior is typical. Older ladies on both sides of me would watch the credits add up when they hit a full house or higher. I would “slam” the button causing the credits to add up instantly. They were averaging perhaps 400 hands per hour while I was playing more than twice that.
Possibly these people were on some team, paid by the hour. Possibly they just saw the $4,600 number, which they recognized as being at possibly an all-time high for this machine and sat down to take a shot at it. I didn’t pay attention to what strategy they were using, so I have no idea of their competence. This is a game that can be quite expensive if you’re not the one who hits the royal.
Even when I’ve passed either of the two full banks of quarter deuces bonus progressives at the South Point, the players seen to be playing much more seriously than they are at Sam’s Town. Probably because there are so many decent video poker plays at South Point and relatively few at Sam’s Town. But I’m not sure.
Fortunately, I was dealt AAAA4 and 2222K (which didn’t improve on the draw) in the 900 hands I played before somebody else hit the royal at $5,100. My score was positive on this day, although that’s something my readers care about more than I do. Keep playing games where I have the edge, and over time, good things will happen.
It will probably be easier to sit down at a game this size in the future now that I have “gotten over” my reluctance. But it had better be a big edge. Playing these stakes for less than a one percent advantage is just not very interesting.
The part of this that interested me is that you are restricted from mailers but are still eligible for multipliers? I would assume that if they cut you off from one they would cut you off from both.
Bob, re Boyd Properties – it’s worse than ever.
I’m small time, $1 JOB, but still have always received monthly mailers; and promos in the casino (e.g. swipe card for free play). That was then. Now starting in Jan, nothing. Have given up tracking the “Tear Points”.
Last Dec, they sent me something about “… you’re only xxx points away from becoming Emerald! …”. Easily played beyond whatever that goal was before year’s end, but never heard anything more.
Some executive decision was made down there on So. Rainbow in Dec, that has drastically affected Boyd players.
“sometimes I play slots for 75¢ or 80¢ a hand” What slot machines would you be willing to play? You always say you’re only an advantage player, but slot machines are never positive.
I was Sapphire at Boyd for many years. Even after the “restructuring,” It wasn’t hard to play enough Airport Deuces or DW Bonus at $1 or 5x quarters, to get comped; and the Orleans poker room was also a big plus. Even got comped at Gold Coast during the WSOP several years running.
Then came the pandemic and I lost all my tier credits. They just evaporated at the end of 2020, and Boyd didn’t see fit to offer any extensions. To rebuild back to Sapphire level would have taken several trips at full expense, and I just wasn’t willing to do that; so it looks like Boyd and I have parted company.
OTOH, the same game is available at a couple of places in Laughlin, and I’m still getting comped there. Had a very nice visit over Memorial Day Weekend.
Real poker in Laughlin appears to be on the decline, with only two rooms left and one much nicer than the other. But a year or so ago my significant other got the last seat in a tournament at the lesser Laughlin poker room, and I couldn’t get in–they refused to open another table–so I played a little “marginal” video poker while waiting for her, probably less than 200 hands in all. Now I’m getting comp offers from them, too.
Go figure….
Al, there are many, many slots that often go +EV
When Boyd changed its club rules and created these new tiers, it all changed. The other fact was that videopoker players got basicailly zero points for playing on any day but multiplier days. May have come along with the fact that more and more newer video reels are replacing old videopoker games these days. Patrons may shift from Videopoker to Slots a bit, partially perhaps to compensate the loss of points/comps or to maintain their tier status.
I also lost all of my remaining points and my status because I am from Europe and haven’t been to Vegas since 2019. Things may have changed a bit and we’re far from the new “Normal”. I still believe that because of the extremely high competition in Las Vegas casinos will have to remain attractive and do something in order to get the customers through the doors. Once the “after-covid-hype” is through and things are going the normal way, then it will show which casino understands that good customer service is the basics to success in the future. By simply removing all multiplier days, buffets, comps, reducing points, reducing pay tables, you simply can’t expect that all players will continue playing under the new rules.
From Switzerland
Boris
As a blackjack player, I have found Boyd to be a sleazy outfit. The only reason I would go into a Boyd joint is to use the restroom
“What slot machines would you be willing to play? You always say you’re only an advantage player, but slot machines are never positive.’
Al, you’ve made versions of this comment/question numerous times. Almost always, LC Larry tells you there are numerous +EV slots these days under certain conditions.
LC Larry is absolutely correct (at least about this), whether you accept it or not. While I dabble at some of these slot games, I will not be teaching my readers exactly which games are beatable under which conditions — no matter how many times you ask that question. If you want that information, you’re going to have to find it elsewhere.
Of course, somebody could approach Las Vegas Advisor about publishing a blog about advantage slot play. But the advantage would not last very long.
Casinos are much more energetic now about following social media regarding gambling than ever before.
After Dr. Thorpe’s book came out, advantage blackjack was still around for a very long time.
After Jean Scott and Bob Dancer’s books came out, advantage video poker was still around for a very long time.
Information about advantage slot play is already out there on social media. So I don’t think the advantage will last much longer.
Even though Boyd gives video poker players zilch as far as tier. I have to say that even the years when i didnt play enough slots to reach sapphire, the offers didn’t stop. Since I have sort of branched out some to play enough slots to keep sapphire level while predominantly playing video poker. Since the offers remained the same I have continued to give them my play. On a further note they may have backed off a bit and began to give a few more tier credits to video poker. Though their computations is still pretty well a mystery, on my last trip I earned a lot more tier credits than I was expecting and can only assume that some came from video poker.
I don’t think the advantage slot play will be going anywhere, the casino’s still get there full %. I think due to the knowledge being more available opportunities may be harder to find hence most of the info available is for older games although its still true and many of the must win progressives eventually go positive for the savy player. The biggest dangers I see for ap slots is to be seen by the casino in a similar light too an UX vulture as the casino will feel they have no chance against you as a player and so back you off. The differences between stated % of a slot don’t really change its just that the slot can go positive for the player unlike a VP machine, which may have a theoretical 100+% payback but this is only for the very knowledgeable player who has put the work in to learn the strategy required, the everyday player may believe there playing a 100%+ game but in reality it could be as low as 80/90% depending on skill level or lack there of. Purely from a VP perspective this then becomes an exercise in marketing the fact they have 100% games when in reality the casino will earn very nicely off these games.
There are already too many people blogging about AP slot play. Time to start duct taping them up. 🙂
As soon as many people know how to play these kinds of slots, there will be crowds of hustlers loitering and checking out these games until they become playable. Some of these hustlers are very smart, they apparently walk through the casino and make no suspricous impression. However, some of them are very alert about anything that’s going on and they see things many others don’t. Comes along the danger of pick-pocketing and grabbing up stuff that other people forget on their machine while heading to the restroom and returning. It’s essential to watch out and keep your eyes open about people walking through the slot aisles pretending they’re just walking through. Some of them are basically scanning the zone and gabbing up whatever becomes available.
It’s a bit annoying when these “professionals” work in groups like in the 90s when there were scouts checking out the games , and making phone calls to the players once they found a playable machine and locking up that slot without actually playing until the guy with the money showed up to play.
From Switzerland
Boris
When you play no limit live poker you can advantage play for hours, the conditions are of course a big factor, and the better players will catch on to you, but it’s a game that rewards you for your skills. Poker on television is my friend, people see players winning millions, and they think they can too. On my last Las Vegas trip I primarily played at South Point and The Golden Nugget, the players at South Point were way better players than the ones at The Golden Nugget, I adjusted, and did well at both. I will never stick a dime in a slot machine, no matter what the progressive pay out is, I refuse to play a mindless game…
Michael, you gotta be permanently focused and on top of your game. America’s poker rooms are filled with great players. Some players even go playing in the graveyard hours because they know that others are trying to get back to even and thus taking more risks preflop. Some players I noticed tend to camouflage and dress up a bit tourist style with fancy shirts and look goofy just to create the impression as if they are a loose tourist. Over the years I’ve seen crazy stuff in the poker rooms, but the local rocks are definetely something I can spot rightaway and whenever they start playing I have 3 alarm lights flashing up. When the games become too tight then it’s time for me to walk . I’ve played at terrible games at Red Rock or GVR, not so sure of GVR has its poker room still. However, with more than 5 great players at the table to me such a game becomes unplayable. People tend to underestimate the impact of the high rake in ratio to the small pot size. I would therefore prefer a good videopoker game with a great multiplier promo over any live poker game where you can still lose the farm even when flopping top-set. That’s how I see it. Each one his own, of course, but sometimes playing slotmachines can be fun and if you hit one of those bonus payouts it’s double fun. Not all poker games are fun , especially if you’re sitting there with non-communicating experts just waiting to take you out.
From Switzerland
Boris