Internet forums, by their nature, are filled with disparate opinions. Recently, another blogger in the LVA stable wrote a comment in response to a blog I posted in late March. He disagreed with me. And, as you’ll see, I disagree with his disagreement.
The distinction you’re missing is that advantage play almost never violates the casino’s rules, written or implied. A player playing a VP machine or blackjack well is not playing it any differently from anyone else, except he/she is making better decisions. There’s no rule against that.
It must be nice to live in such a world where everybody in the group you identify with is a good guy! Especially when you’re a quarter player and have no idea of what goes on at higher stakes
Advantage play consists of regularly beating the casino. The players who do this tend to be smarter than average, sneakier than average, and more knowledgeable than average about casino games. Each player goes about being an AP in a slightly different way.
Such players see the casino as their adversary. It’s not a huge stretch for them to see the casino as their enemy — and against whom all sorts of things are fair game.
Some of us attempt to play fair. I do, at least at this point in my life. Years ago, when I was hungrier and had less to lose, I cut some corners that I wouldn’t cut today. I cannot say I always walked the straight and narrow. Can you?
Let’s look at some areas where APs haven’t been known to have the highest integrity.
At some casinos, it’s okay to play on your spouse’s player’s card, and some where even that is frowned upon. There are players who shuffle 30 or more cards at a casino.
If you receive comped tickets and give them away to family members, surely it’s well within the spirit with which they were given. But if you receive comped tickets and sell them, then that’s considered over-the-line. Same with extra hotel rooms.
In some table games, it’s against the rules to show others your cards. Some players do. Some players develop elaborate systems to reveal their cards to teammates at the same table.
What if you’re playing two machines, telling others that you’re holding the second machine for your wife who is upstairs. What if she is actually nowhere nearby, but you say the same thing?
One casino has drawings where you do not have to be present, but you need to claim before midnight or the prize is forfeited. Players form groups and text the winning numbers to each other. This may not be illegal, but it is certainly against what the casino had in mind.
If you’re on vacation and cannot pick up your free play, the casino wants you to forfeit it. Many players allow their friends to pick it up for them.
An AP will at least consider all of these things. Many everyday players won’t even think of them. Some of these things are perfectly legal; some are gray areas; some are definitely over-the-line. Whatever line the courts decide is the right one, there will always be players stepping over that line.
I believe APs are better than lesser players at figuring out these things. Once figured out, some APs cross the lines and some don’t. There is no way to say that “All APs xxxxx” and be accurate. Different players use different tactics.
Thinking about this most recent column, Mr. Dancer, I was reminded that the casinos don’t always seem to play completely fair, either. One night, years ago my wife and I were playing at one of our favorite perimeter casinos. They had a drawing promotion with winners drawn every night. Winner didn’t have to be there for the drawing, Just had to claim by midnight. So we played, put our tics in the hopper, and went to a show a another nearby casino. When we returned, I thought to check the contest winners board. Sure enough there was my name, for $100 in free play. So i headed over to the slots booth (near those aces and faces quarter machines), and presented my slot card. They promptly put my points on my card. But what they didn’t do was tell this California boy that the free play had to be used up by midnight that night also. I did talk to a slot host and got this fixed, but would of been nice if those details had been posted someplace, for us out of towners!!
Congrats for getting it fixed
Bad form to expect them to hold your hand. Not knowing the casino or the particular drawing, they probably had the rules written for you to read. And even if you didn’t read, they would have told you had you asked.
Blaming others for your lack of ‘taking care of business’ is not the hallmark of being an AP. Avoiding this problem was entirely within your control.
“Bad form” is for a GWAE Blogger to slap a reader around like that for his friendly reply.
Absolutely. I would have to say yes, AP’s do cheat. Players cheat the casino, the casino will cheat the players, and the dealers will cheat the players and their employer.
I believe in pitch blackjack games they sometimes have a sign that says, “Don’t show players your hand,” or something along those lines. I’ve never seen the dealers or the pitboss enforce such a rule. What other casino games do they offer in a casino where the players are not supposed to expose their cards?
Not following a rule does not necessarily constitute cheating.
A recent ruling by a judge of the people in NJ stated that if a player wins money at a casino they are cheating ….. what an awful ruling/judge.
I have a tough time imagining anything honest in New Jersey. One of the best things I like about New Jersey is that I am not there.
I’d be interested in seeing some more details on that ruling. If true, that would be a huge issue for everyone who walks into a casino. I can’t believe the ruling would be that punitive to the player.
My thought is that Nick was generalizing the Phil Ivey/Borgata ruling. Although I strongly disagree with the ruling, I don’t believe it is as strong as Nick posted here.
While he was probably referring to the Phil Ivey case, in which the judge said that casinos exist to extract money from their patrons. He could also be referring to the unshuffled baccarat decks case from Golden Nugget in which a judge ruled that a game not dealt the exact way a casino wants it dealt is not a game at all. Applied retroactively that’s pretty much a freeroll for the casino.
He could also be talking about the rarely talked about Houck v. Borgata case from NJ which ruled that hole-carding was a “scheme” to defraud not only the casino but the other players and thus constitutes cheating under NJ law.
A couple relevant articles, including about the Phil Ivey case:
https://www.cardschat.com/news/phil-ivey-dealt-rags-by-judge-in-10-million-borgata-legal-battle-34300
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/magazine/how-advantage-players-game-the-casinos.html
I believe the casinos are always looking for an excuse to rob players. For example, if you find a chip on the floor and the casino sees you pick it up, they can and will claim ownership. The eject players for winning and try to avoid giving them any compensation for remaining free play and comps. Casinos have been known to sue preferential shuffling when the count is high on blackjack (or shuffle in response to a higher bet). They also go to court to steal money won fair and square, such as the Ivey case. h In a more general sense, they offer horrible odds that give players no real shot at winning. Their entire business model involves taking advantage of people. When APs turn the tables, I consider this to be Karma. There is also a HUGE difference between breaking casino policy and breaking the law. But casinos keep getting ‘confused’. As a result, a lot of casinos have been successfully sued for gross misconduct towards advantage players who violated casino policy or just beat them yet violated no laws. I have no problem with anyone who extracts money from casinos, though its probably a good idea to stay on the right side of the law. Casinos do not play fair, so why should customers?
If you feel you do not have any chance to win, then why play at all? Casino’s want to take your money. That is why there are in business. Not to provide fair games, but to entice you to come in and lose your money. If you are an AP, then you have a better chance then the average person, but don’t whine about it. You know what you are getting into before you walk in the door. I have won, and I have lost. Overall, it has cost me to go have FUN. I am willing to do so. And I know what the probably outcome will be. I study Bob’s strategies, and others. I practice. Since I do not live in Vegas, I do not know mostly where the “good” machines are. I live in CA, and for the most part, all the casino’s in CA are terrible, and no one really watches what they do. Regardless, I still know that I am most likely going to leave some of my money there. And that is the cost of having fun.
“But if you receive comped tickets and sell them, then that’s considered over-the-line.”
Um, as far as AP strategies go, this is the farthest thing from “over-the-line”. The tickets are your property; you can do with them as you please. It’s no different from selling the giveaway coffee maker on eBay, or selling the car you won to pay the taxes.
Cheating is a legal distinction. Advantage play usually refers to using legal means to get an advantage. I’m not going to get into the pros and cons of coupon hustling but some things are legally OK even though they might violate player club rules. The casino doesn’t make law. Other things could be considered fraud. That all said, a casino player card is technically no different from the frequent shopper card you get at Smiths or Vons.
How is a player who finds a legal loophole that allows them to turn the tables on Casino’s a cheat? Casino’s themselves openly admit to offering games that have a negative EV for the player. It is not square game. They are offering. Common, everyday players must overcome overwhelming odds to get a win and in the long run, they won’t. AP’s turn the tables on the Casino’s by pretty much employing the same strategy of having a built in, mathematical edge that they will win over the long run that casinos do.
Let’s say a baseball player pays attention closely and he notices that the pitcher is tipping his pitches. Is he cheating if he takes advantage of this information that he gained by just paying closer attention?
I do not consider using legal loopholes to be cheating.
Sometimes it’s not clear whether a given loophole is cheating or not. Some APs will take the chance anyway, and some won’t
My column was in response to a post that basically said ALL APs NEVER cheat. I find that comment to be overly simplistic.
My guess is that most gamblers who consider themselves to be “AP’s”, whatever that means, take great pride that they never cheat. Once you cheat, you’re a cheater, you win by cheating. You’ve crossed a line that many gamblers would not cross. It’s like doping in athletics, sure you can win by doping, but can you win without doping, that’s the real challenge. Practically anybody can grab a bunch of chips from a table game and run out the door, but can you win those chips fair and square?
And that would be just that, Liz; a guess. My experience in substantially dealing with Homo Sapiens sapiens for all the years that constitute my life has been that more often than not, what they “consider” themselves to be is often not what they actually are. I especially advise being leery of members of the species who preface self descriptions with “you know what kind of person I am? . . .
you talk as if your not one of the Homo sapiens…..blah blah….. What species are you and why are you ?
I know doping is illegal for sports, and such, yet I did think so when I first heard about it, b/c (correct me if im wrong) doping is just taking the person own blood and supper oxygenating it and putting that blood back in the person. No drugs, no change to the person skill, it using science to boost a person, anyone could do it. Sport players breath pure O2 which is also not natural (at least I know of know place you can find a pure ox area). So, why is breath pure ox ok and doping is not?
Should it be done, personally I say no, b/c i dont like needles….lol. I really dont just b/c, and for no other reason, yet huffing ox should also be not allowed.
Yet I also think that they should make a game or league that allows the use of all chemical and methods no hold bared, just b/c I think that it would be cool to see hopped up and juiced played go balls out to make money and a wild ride…….If the players are willing to abuse their own body for money I;ll let them, hell its not like a Gladiator fight to the death…..although that might be ……hmmm just kidding…maybe….no i am….?
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