Kitchen Sink- ENTER WITH CAUTION - tRump criminal indictment released.

tRump criminal indictment released.

Kevin Lewis

Jun 10, 2023
7:01pm

Originally posted by: Charles Higgins

The evidence in the indictment you pointed out, if true and proved at trial, is damning. We'll see. Pre-trial, you're already convinced every shred of evidence in this indictment document regarding Trump is fact ( simply because it is Trump) , but the trial hasn't happened yet and you're already hanging him from a political yardarm ( simply because , again, it's Trump). You don't know all the facts/ evidence (were you at Mar- a- Lago?), and I don't know either. I won't defend his actions if these allegations are proven in court and the jury convicts him. If that latter statement is really what you're manipulatively seeking, there it is.

No, I don't have evidence of similar crimes by Democrats. But there are a lot of issues asociated with them them to question of late, imo. There's more than a modicum of suggestion that the DOJ and FBI are biased in favor of the current administration. Those issues are debated daily in here and everywhere else..I won't name them because it's pointless..ultimately. Make your own choices and vote your own ticket, Beulah Buttercup.

If you're indicted on 37 felony counts, it isn't necessary for every shred of evidence to be factual, is it? Just like one or two, or even more, of the women who accused Trump of sexual assault COULD have been making it all up and it's still extremely likely that he's a rapist.

I don't buy your silly statement that we think he's guilty because we don't like him or because of our politics. We think he's guilty because there's a motherfucking mountain of evidence against him. But y'know what? Definitely, let the trial commence. If that Trumpy "judge" throws the whole thing out (a strong possibility), then all we'll know is that Trump skated again.

I guess that's a little different from the MAGA attitude that Hunter Biden is guilty of slaughtering millions of people and unpaid traffic tickets, or that Barack Obama is a space alien from the planet Dweemo, hmm? MAGAs didn't need ANY evidence, let alone an indictment or a trial, to believe those things implicitly--did you?

Nines

Jun 10, 2023
7:02pm

Block User

Originally posted by: Kevin Lewis

That argument is like saying history didn't treat FDR as harshly as it treated Stalin. There was a REASON why Trump was heavily scrutinized and criticized. That reason was...he was (and still is) an incompetent, evil, self-aggrandizing asshole. And yes, Obama wasn't!

The fact of the matter--the sad fact--is that the very behavior and characteristics that make Trump so abhorrent to good and sane people make him attractive to millions of people who are neither good nor sane. To that effect, he's the symptom, not the disease. If not him, there would be some other race-baiting, conspiracy theory-pitching demagogue riling up the goobers. Why YOU--who at least appear to be sane--are, or at least were, attracted to him is your own business and a function of a darkness in your soul that we need not discuss.

Your contention that Trump has been treated unfairly by the media (that gol-durn LIBURRUL MEDIA) is so laughable, coming from you it sounds much more like a self-justification. Why didn't you loathe him from the start? Because poor Trumpy-poo was beaten up by the evil media. Oooookay.

But really--his fiscal policies? Slashing government revenues and creating a massive deficit? Da Wall rather than a sane and humane immigration policy? His defense policies--almost starting a war with Iran, climbing into bed with North Korea? REALLY???? But (sigh)...it's your prerogative, to nurture an alternate version of reality, which is pretty much a mandatory membership qualification to belong to the Trumper RepubliQ these days.

I've talked with hundreds of people whose Trumpy worship and allegiance were disgusting but perhaps inevitable and even understandable. Then, there were dozens of other folks whose devotion to the Turd was puzzling and disappointing. I can't help but think of all the ordinary, GOOD Germans who fell in love with a madman and happily helped him drive their country over a cliff. I'm sure they had their very logical, very well-reasoned motives for supporting him. And I'm sure many of those reasons were his fiscal and foreign policies!

So...I consider your anything but full-throated condemnation of Trump from the get-go to be disappointing. I hope you see that as a compliment. Davey Dog, Boilerboob, stupid Tommie-poo, their Trump-licking is sickening but to be expected. But I would hope that someone with your intellect would be made of sterner stuff. However--you're a good German. Sigh.

We've already had this he said-she said twenty times to no avail or incidence of change. We disagree, other than the fact that if he's convicted in this trial, he should pay the consequences. I agree with that. You implicitly suggest or charge that I'm over-defending Trump and his actions, though, when all I'm really saying is let the court convict and punish him. We've rounded this same rosebush forty times, and the surrounding ruts are pretty deep. Make your own evaluations, analysis, and voting choices..I'll do the same. Further, I'm more Indian ( or Native American if that's more politically correct for those so inclined) than German ( which was a ridiculous attempt by you to label me as a Nazi...pretty weak and completely untrue not to mention offensive). You're so completely blinded by leftist ideology that you draw a line at reasonable debate ..most days. Yet, your kind is necessary to continually remind me why I'm on the other side..so carry on. Make more joyful noises..cheers.

Nines

Jun 10, 2023
7:18pm

Block User

Originally posted by: Kevin Lewis

If you're indicted on 37 felony counts, it isn't necessary for every shred of evidence to be factual, is it? Just like one or two, or even more, of the women who accused Trump of sexual assault COULD have been making it all up and it's still extremely likely that he's a rapist.

I don't buy your silly statement that we think he's guilty because we don't like him or because of our politics. We think he's guilty because there's a motherfucking mountain of evidence against him. But y'know what? Definitely, let the trial commence. If that Trumpy "judge" throws the whole thing out (a strong possibility), then all we'll know is that Trump skated again.

I guess that's a little different from the MAGA attitude that Hunter Biden is guilty of slaughtering millions of people and unpaid traffic tickets, or that Barack Obama is a space alien from the planet Dweemo, hmm? MAGAs didn't need ANY evidence, let alone an indictment or a trial, to believe those things implicitly--did you?

No..one count is enough to convict...quite obviously. Indictments and court outcomes obviously generate merit and aspects of truth. I've no problem with those goody two shoes outcomes, either..no matter who/ whom might end up guilty. You're trying to get me to board the Hypocrisy Transit Bus..I won't .You can figuratively hang Trump after his single and/or multicount conviction occurs. Now go back to your burrow.

Mark

Jun 10, 2023
7:46pm

Block User

The evidence in the indictment you pointed out, if true and proved at trial, is damning.

Not trying to bust your chops here Charles, but let's take a look at this from a legal angle.

The daming evidence, in this case, is the fact the documents were found in Trump's possession, his attorney's notes, the sworn certification by his attorney that all the documents were turned over, and the recording of Trump sharing the documents and acknowledging he can no longer declassify them. That stuff as a practical matter is impossible to refute in court.

Now, as to the witnesses in the case, It's actually a benefit to him that he surrounds himself with low-credibility gifters which makes their credibility as witnesses against him questionable.

However, he is charged with 37 offenses most of which are under the Espionage Act. At least some of those 37 charges will be provable with just the hard evidence that won't rely on witness testimony. Those espionage offenses carry 10 to 20 years in the clink.

Say Team Trump hits it out of the park with their defense and they go 36-1 against the charges. Trump still gets ten to twenty years in Federal prison and he is 77 years old. That puts him in his 90s before he gets out assuming there are no convictions in other jurisdictions. And lets be real given his health it's a life sentence.

I think one of the most fascinating aspects of this whole thing is what if he wins while he is in prison? Well, I suspect he would try to pardon himself and then there would be a legal battle to determine if a President can pardon himself.

Assuming he won that one, the espionage act has a unique feature. It says anyone convicted under the act can never be granted access to any classified materials. Trump would effectively be a zombie president not even able to receive briefings on the lowest level classified information.

Again as I said a few days ago. Trump is the dumbest criminal in the world. All 37 of the charges were avoidable by simply turning the documents over when the government asked for them. There would have been no consequences.

If Trump were sane, he would cut a deal agreeing to never seek Federal Office again in exchange for greatly reduced charges that carry no jail time that would allow Trump and the nation a dignified resolution but his ego won't allow that.

Kevin Lewis

Jun 10, 2023
8:48pm

Block User

Originally posted by: Charles Higgins

We've already had this he said-she said twenty times to no avail or incidence of change. We disagree, other than the fact that if he's convicted in this trial, he should pay the consequences. I agree with that. You implicitly suggest or charge that I'm over-defending Trump and his actions, though, when all I'm really saying is let the court convict and punish him. We've rounded this same rosebush forty times, and the surrounding ruts are pretty deep. Make your own evaluations, analysis, and voting choices..I'll do the same. Further, I'm more Indian ( or Native American if that's more politically correct for those so inclined) than German ( which was a ridiculous attempt by you to label me as a Nazi...pretty weak and completely untrue not to mention offensive). You're so completely blinded by leftist ideology that you draw a line at reasonable debate ..most days. Yet, your kind is necessary to continually remind me why I'm on the other side..so carry on. Make more joyful noises..cheers.

You didn't get it--I implicitly compared you to the "good" Germans who were NOT Nazis...but got swept up in the fervor. I similarly believe that you're not a Trumper per se, but climbed on that bus for other reasons (and as i said, those reasons are your province, not mine.

You accuse me of being biased, yet you toot the ridiculous horn that poor Trumpy is being persecuted...OK then. I actually don't subscribe to most of what you pejoratively label "leftist ideology"--except perhaps my radical liberal liberal radical radical liberal notion that all human beings have the same fundamental rights. Am I "blinded" by that extremist idea? I guess so!!!!!!

Nines

Jun 11, 2023
9:20am

Block User

Originally posted by: Kevin Lewis

You didn't get it--I implicitly compared you to the "good" Germans who were NOT Nazis...but got swept up in the fervor. I similarly believe that you're not a Trumper per se, but climbed on that bus for other reasons (and as i said, those reasons are your province, not mine.

You accuse me of being biased, yet you toot the ridiculous horn that poor Trumpy is being persecuted...OK then. I actually don't subscribe to most of what you pejoratively label "leftist ideology"--except perhaps my radical liberal liberal radical radical liberal notion that all human beings have the same fundamental rights. Am I "blinded" by that extremist idea? I guess so!!!!!!

No. What I inferred and made pretty clear was the fact that the DC Dem bureaucracy of the last decade ( and specifically under the auspices of the current administration) haven't exhibited equal pursuit of other Democratic characters (and agencies) that should have been more thoroughly investigated / potentially prosecuted in a more timely manner vs that exhibited for Trump. There is factual evidence that the FBI and DOJ , in particular, have engaged in these unequal pursuits and protections. It'd be nice if one of you liberals would just admit that in light of the irrefutable evidence. It won't matter because denial won't change the fact that it happened and continues to happen. In your own words above.." all human beings have the same fundamental rights"; that applies to Trump, as well. If he's proven guilty at trial, then he's guilty..end of story. I don't think the sum total pursuits and/or protections ( vs let's say that seen for Hillary Clinton) have been equal.

We continue to circle the rosebush..to no avail. Yeah,well...

Nines

Jun 11, 2023
9:52am

Block User

Originally posted by: Mark

The evidence in the indictment you pointed out, if true and proved at trial, is damning.

Not trying to bust your chops here Charles, but let's take a look at this from a legal angle.

The daming evidence, in this case, is the fact the documents were found in Trump's possession, his attorney's notes, the sworn certification by his attorney that all the documents were turned over, and the recording of Trump sharing the documents and acknowledging he can no longer declassify them. That stuff as a practical matter is impossible to refute in court.

Now, as to the witnesses in the case, It's actually a benefit to him that he surrounds himself with low-credibility gifters which makes their credibility as witnesses against him questionable.

However, he is charged with 37 offenses most of which are under the Espionage Act. At least some of those 37 charges will be provable with just the hard evidence that won't rely on witness testimony. Those espionage offenses carry 10 to 20 years in the clink.

Say Team Trump hits it out of the park with their defense and they go 36-1 against the charges. Trump still gets ten to twenty years in Federal prison and he is 77 years old. That puts him in his 90s before he gets out assuming there are no convictions in other jurisdictions. And lets be real given his health it's a life sentence.

I think one of the most fascinating aspects of this whole thing is what if he wins while he is in prison? Well, I suspect he would try to pardon himself and then there would be a legal battle to determine if a President can pardon himself.

Assuming he won that one, the espionage act has a unique feature. It says anyone convicted under the act can never be granted access to any classified materials. Trump would effectively be a zombie president not even able to receive briefings on the lowest level classified information.

Again as I said a few days ago. Trump is the dumbest criminal in the world. All 37 of the charges were avoidable by simply turning the documents over when the government asked for them. There would have been no consequences.

If Trump were sane, he would cut a deal agreeing to never seek Federal Office again in exchange for greatly reduced charges that carry no jail time that would allow Trump and the nation a dignified resolution but his ego won't allow that.

Mark..For me, the most damning evidence against Trump in this case are his own words from the now publicized audiotape. I don't see a way for he and his attorneys to scale that ball of concertina wire. In many ways in this case, he has been his own worst enemy by his own statements ( including ones made publicly since the indictment was handed down). It's true..if he'd just simply complied and handed over any / all documents in question much if not all of this debacle could have been avoided / greatly minimized. Unfortunately, handing over said documents would have been completely non - Trumpian. He couldn't / wouldn't / didn't. Though for me there's something admirable about his will to fight, he's up against the wall now and his supposed magic may be finally exhausted. We'll see.

Regarding a potential plea agreement if convicted, I can visualize a scenario where he might doggedly agree to not run for office as a condition for reduced charges; I alluded to that possibility in an earlier post in the thread. For Trump, perhaps the worst overall punishment/s for him might be the inability to hold a rally...grandstand in front of a crowd..and not obtain the office he so desperately reseeks.

Any / most answers to any of these issues will be played out in the actual trial..any potential convictions ( for whatever alleged infractions)..and potential penalty outcomes; we don't know until it's complete, especially in light of the fact that the trial judge ( as it stands now) is a Trump appointee. We have to let it play out.

I suppose in the current off-the-wall world, it's possible that we might see a general election debate where the two main R and D candidates are both wearing ankle bracelets while debating on the stage. Ya think?

David Miller

Jun 11, 2023
9:54am

Block User

Originally posted by: Charles Higgins

No. What I inferred and made pretty clear was the fact that the DC Dem bureaucracy of the last decade ( and specifically under the auspices of the current administration) haven't exhibited equal pursuit of other Democratic characters (and agencies) that should have been more thoroughly investigated / potentially prosecuted in a more timely manner vs that exhibited for Trump. There is factual evidence that the FBI and DOJ , in particular, have engaged in these unequal pursuits and protections. It'd be nice if one of you liberals would just admit that in light of the irrefutable evidence. It won't matter because denial won't change the fact that it happened and continues to happen. In your own words above.." all human beings have the same fundamental rights"; that applies to Trump, as well. If he's proven guilty at trial, then he's guilty..end of story. I don't think the sum total pursuits and/or protections ( vs let's say that seen for Hillary Clinton) have been equal.

We continue to circle the rosebush..to no avail. Yeah,well...

Charles - you should realize by now that having an honest, sane discussion with Lewis is a lesson in futality.

Nines

Jun 11, 2023
10:47am

Block User

Originally posted by: David Miller

Charles - you should realize by now that having an honest, sane discussion with Lewis is a lesson in futality.

David...I have a ton of frailties, including a stubborn nature, which I routinely pay for in some form or fashion.

Let me ask you..do you think Trump will survive this indictment and ensuing trial? Will he be the eventual nominee?

David Miller

Jun 11, 2023
11:09am

Block User

Originally posted by: Charles Higgins

David...I have a ton of frailties, including a stubborn nature, which I routinely pay for in some form or fashion.

Let me ask you..do you think Trump will survive this indictment and ensuing trial? Will he be the eventual nominee?

Yes to both of your questions. Once again the DemocRats have utilized another moronic diversionary tactic in order to deflect from their America ruining agenda and Biden's traitorous actions.These swamp creatures are corrupt and thick as thieves. Look at where America is today compared to when brain dead Biden took office. All this latest bullshit indictment has done is expose these criminals for the slimy creatures that they are - and has fortified the resolve of sane, honest Americans to rid America of these traitors. Anyone supporting and voting for any DemocRat is delusional and completly oblivious to what these traitors have done and continue to do to America. People better take a good, hard look at reality and quit buying into the lies that DemocRats feed Americans every day. God help us.

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