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Musings About Being an AP

Bob Dancer

I was having dinner with two winning slot/video poker players when one of them, “Al,” asked, “What was the first AP movie you watched?” I knew he said AP to mean “Advantage Player,” but I wasn’t exactly sure what kind of movie he meant? “Do you mean like ‘Rounders?’” This 1998 movie starred Matt Damon and Edward Norton.

That was exactly what Al was talking about, and that particular movie was the first AP movie he saw. I’m almost 35 years older than he is and remember the 1965 Steve McQueen, Edgar G. Robinson movie, “The Cincinnati Kid,” which Al had never heard about. The third player, “Bo,” played pool in his youth and remembered seeing “The Hustler,” the Paul Newman, Jackie Gleason movie that came out in 1961. 

A number of other movies were mentioned, and eventually I mentioned “The Sting,” the 1973 movie starring Paul Newman and Robert Redford. “Absolutely not!” declared Al. “That movie centers around a con, and there are a number of dishonest activities portrayed. Being an AP means you win by your wits without cheating!” 

I wasn’t particularly surprised by Al’s point of view. Al is a deeply religious man who lives his life with integrity. If he thinks an action is even a little bit sketchy, he’ll avoid it. While I don’t agree with all of his decisions, I highly respect them. 

For me, I consider myself an honorable person, but I do take some “shortcuts” along the way. One of the problems with the idea of avoiding cheating is that the definition of cheating is vague. It’s a bit like what Supreme Court Justice Potter wrote in 1964 about a very dissimilar situation, “I can’t define it, but I know it when I see it.” Except what you conclude and I conclude can be different. Some matters haven’t been decided by the courts. Sometimes good lawyers can convince the courts that something is legal while the casinos wish it had been decided the other way.

For example: I play many games. While I have most of them mastered, I have many of the “semi-memorized.” On my cell phone, I have a Word document that lists the correct strategies for these games. I sometimes look at this strategy during play. Officially, in Nevada, this just may break the device law, while looking at the same strategy written on a piece of paper does not. This doesn’t make sense to me, but it might be the law. I use the argument, “Casinos aren’t likely to prosecute this,” to give me license to do it. Is this cheating? Not to me, but others disagree. Bob Nersesian, the best-known attorney for player-casino disputes has said if I did this and the casino took action against me, he would refuse to defend me. “The law is clear about this,” he has said. 

Assume a casino allowed its players in the top tier to have one day a month of 5x points, where the player got to choose which day was most convenient for her. Also assume a husband-and-wife team were both members of this tier. On one day a month they’d both play on his card, and on another day that month they’d both play on her card. To me, this is a smart, AP move. It certainly isn’t what the casino intended. Is it actually cheating? Al would probably think so, but I’m not sure. He is an unmarried 40-year-old (he can’t find a woman he likes who is as spiritual as himself, and this is his number one criterion). He’s played right next to me when I’ve hit a jackpot on Bonnie’s card, and he heard me explain the situation to the slot attendant. (Usually it’s no problem, but if a casino tells me not to do that in the future, I obey.) Al has never said a reproving word to me about this and he still considers me a good friend.

Now look at the players who have cards from 30 different players and basically live in that casino, playing with 5x points on a different card every day. To me this is clearly cheating. What’s the exact line between doing it on a spouse’s card and doing it on cards from “business partners?” I can’t tell you, but it’s something I feel strongly about.

Let’s say I have $1,000 in free play to pick up at a casino, but I won’t be in town during the time period the free play is active. I have a trusted friend who would be happy to play quarter video poker for an hour to redeem this in exchange for a $100 fee. Even if the casino has no better than 6/5 Bonus Poker (worth about 96.9%), the cost of playing $1,000 through is only a little more than $30 in expected value which is dwarfed by the size of the bonus. Before discussing whether I would do this or not, also consider a second case where it’s the same situation but this time I have $5 in free play to pick up. Also assume the casino would not be happy if it discovered somebody else was playing on my card.

Morally speaking, it makes no difference whether it’s $1,000 or $5 we’re talking about. It’s breaking the casino’s rules. Al would avoid this in both cases. For $5, though, I’d give that up without a qualm and for $1,000 I’d at least think about it pretty hard. Historically I have sometimes hired people to collect free play for me. Not always, but more than once.

My thoughts on this general subject have evolved over the years. Since I’ve been publishing my thoughts for close to 30 years, someone interested in proving that what I’m saying now conflicts with something I said a number of years ago could find evidence to support his view. I’m more interested in telling it like it is for me now than worrying about always being consistent with every thought I’ve had in the past.

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Hockey Knights in Vegas Episode 108: It’s Playoff Time

Hockey Knights in Vegas is BACK!

Ten days into the Stanley Cup Playoffs and the first-round series are starting to take shape. Eddie & Chris offer a complete rundown of all eight series in a way only they can.

Which teams are playing to form? Which are on upset watch? Which are already dead and don’t know it?

If you’re a fan of impressions, Eddie offers up a couple of classics sure to get a laugh!

All that and an in-depth analysis of the VGK-Wild series on Episode 108 of Hockey Knights in Vegas!

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Bobby Vegas: A Break in the Blog Dam

Bobby Vegas: Friends Don’t Let Friends Play Triple-Zero Roulette

I’ve been having severe medical problems over the last 9 months. After six trips to the ER/Triage, three surgeries and one under emergency conditions, and two months of catheters, I’ve lost 38 pounds. At several points in the process, my crew was very very concerned. So was I.

But I’m a tough old bird (it takes a lot to kill me), and though I’m not exactly bouncing back, I am up and grumbling.

I haven’t been publishing my blog every couple of weeks, which is another indication of how severe it’s all been. Writing this blog is an honor and a joy for this unrepentant old Vegas scuffler.

And now … sigh … my issues are exacerbated by flying, so I won’t be back in Vegas for at least another three months. I’ve got plenty to write about, but I’ll be pining for video poker, the dance floor at the Pinky Ring, comped meals, and scoping out the latest “shews,” as Ed Sullivan used to say.

I can’t get to Vegas unless I drive. And I live in North Carolina. Before you ask, no, Harrah’s Cherokee just doesn’t do it for me.

In short, life has slowed me down in a way I’ve not seen in nearly seven decades.

Please bear with me. I apologize that I may be slow in responding to comments on my blog. Our system doesn’t alert me when a comment posts, so unless I sign in I don’t see them, some time for weeks. You can also reach me at bobbyvegas.com

Luckily, I still have plenty to write about. I continue to see deals getting better (eternal optimist that I am). I get offers from over a dozen casinos, including juicy mailers from the Rainbow. Treasure Island, Fontainebleau, and Plaza are sending creative deals, such as no resort fee, free parking, and in the case of the Plaza, all-inclusive packages starting at $125 night that come with two meals a day (Hash House a Go Go included) , unlimited drinks, and access to all the resort-fee amenities including free parking, pool, exercise access, and more. The Bingo deal is even better.

Is this a sign of prices stabilizing and deals getting better? Are you seeing good deals? If so, tell us about them, please.

Finally, last year I cut a deal with Anthony to create a downloadable-app phone version of Jean Scott’s fantastic Video Poker Scouting Guide, which I’ve cheered on in my blogs as it’s led me to literally thousands of dollars in video poker wins. We expect it to be up and running in May. Stay tuned.

And please, keep me in your thoughts and prayers.

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Sands Quits, Bally’s Folds

And then there were nine … New York City casino applicants, that is. Yesterday, Las Vegas Sands COO Patrick Dumont—the guy who gave you the Luka Doncic trade—announced that the company wouldn’t be taking a bite of the Big Apple after all. It’s walking away from Sands Nassau and everything that comes with it, on the grounds that iGaming, if approved, would make New York State an unprofitable market.

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Is This Legal?

Bob Dancer

I received an email from a friend. He heard about what happened to a particular player and asked me if I thought it was legal. I’ll share what was reported, but keep in mind that I don’t know who it happened to, the skill of the player, or even in what state the casino is located. All of this information could affect my answer, but there are still interesting features to discuss.

A player, I’ll call him Joe, was playing loose video poker and the casino had a promotion giving a large point multiplier. The points were good for free play only and the multiplying of the points would happen sometime after the day of the play. After the promotion started, the casino figured out that players pounding their loosest games, which included Joe, had a sizeable advantage over the casino. The casino 86’d some of these players and did not let them redeem any of their multiplied points — claiming that the players who were playing these machines so hard during the promotion were indulging in a “free play scam.” 

Joe took it to gaming, claiming he was only playing a promotion that the casino offered. Gaming decided in favor of the casino — but didn’t explain to Joe why. Joe would not have played this game without the multiplier, so was stuck with playing a negative game. The friend who sent me the story told me he thought that casinos could 86 players, but he thought they had to pay out accumulated free play.

I have several comments on this.

  1. I often wish our Gambling with an Edge podcast was still happening, and this is one of those times. I would love to put this question to Bob Nersessian. While I have considerable experience and some expertise, Bob Nersessian is an attorney who specializes in player disputes with casinos. I’m sure he would ask where this happened because rules differ by jurisdiction.
  2. I don’t know whether this was a tribal casino or not. If so, all bets are off. Tribes have considerable discretion in enforcing policies however they see fit. It’s not impossible to sue and win in a situation involving a tribal casino, but it’s much tricker.
  3. I assume Joe represented himself when he went to gaming. Being represented by an attorney can improve your chances for success, but attorneys don’t work for free. I don’t know how much money was involved here. If it was a few hundred dollars, lawyers wouldn’t be interested in suing on a 1/3 contingency basis. If we’re talking $25,000 or more, attorneys will probably talk to you. (While I respect Nersessian and believe he’s handled these cases successfully in the past, I don’t speak for him. I don’t know Nersessian’s minimum amount, whether he has time for another case, or even if he is licensed in the jurisdiction where this took place.)
  4. There have been numerous cases through the years where a casino manager made a big mistake designing a promotion — and when players jumped all over it, chose to blame the players. This strikes me as another one of these cases. Some of these casino managers believe that players who play heavily on a promotion that was juicier than the promotion-designer imagined are actually scum and cheating the casino. Hence the accusation of “free play scam.”  To beat such an accusation, you need to have all the literature describing the promotion and be able to cross examine whoever is calling it a scam. A gaming representative isn’t going to do this. He/she is going take Joe’s statement, take the casino representative’s statement, and make some sort of judgment. Unless Joe demanded a hearing, whether he represented himself or had an attorney do it, he would have no chance to cross examine the casino representative.
  5. I’m most familiar with the gaming rules in Nevada, as that’s where I’ve played the most and heard about more disputes than I have in any other place. Generally speaking, if the casino owes you money in a case such as this, unless they are successfully making a case of fraud, you’ll get your money eventually. I’ve seen it where you can collect small amounts (say $25 per day) of this money, but if you go through the rigamarole, you’ll get your money. If they 86 you, as they did with Joe, they owe him the money when they kick him out because he’s not allowed to go in and collect it.
  6. In a somewhat similar situation where I was on the wrong end of a gaming ruling, the casino only awarded free play for accumulated points — not cash. Since I was 86’d I was not allowed to go in and play off that free play. So sorry. if the casino offered cash back rather than free play, I might have been able to collect.
  7. If a casino has published rules where it promises to deliver such and such, sometime Gaming will force them to honor that during a hearing. Most rules, therefore, have language in it where the casino reserves all rights and is the sole arbiter of disputes. Sometimes Gaming will honor this disclaimer. Sometimes not.
  8. Casino points and comp dollars can sometimes be confiscated — depending on more factors than I can cogently outline. Without knowing more details than I have, it’s possible that the casino was in the right. They were jerks about it, but within their rights. The multiplied points had not been given to Joe when he was 86’d — so it’s possible he’s not going to get them.
  9. Joe has a few options. The ruling in the casino’s favor can sometimes be appealed for a certain period of time. If that time has not elapsed, this is one option. Another option is in the court of public opinion. If what the casino did can be publicized, often the casino will settle in order to shut you up. Sometimes newspapers and/or television stations will publicize it if they are convinced the casino was in the wrong. One problem with this is that Joe’s name will be in this publicity and other casinos in the area may learn more about Joe than he wants them to know. Other casinos may well decide that Joe is too expert or too much of a troublemaker for their taste — and not allow Joe to play in their establishments. While it is legal for Joe to try to embarrass the casino for its high-handed actions, it’s also legal for other casinos to restrict Joe simply by saying, “He’s too good for us.”
  10. In the above situation, if the casino happens to be a big advertiser with whatever media you’d like to use to help you sway public opinion, media executives are often understandably cautious with biting the hand that feeds them. 

In similar cases, where the combination of earned free play and my winning has put me in position where I think it’s at least possible the casino will take some action I don’t like against me, I continually download as much money as I can, as I go. That way, when they stop me, they will not owe me a lot of money. If a casino owes me $5,000 when they pull the plug, and it was possible to retrieve that beforehand and I didn’t, this is arguably my own fault. In this particular case this might not have been possible, but in other cases it has been. In this particular case, where the additional free play would not be loaded until sometime in the future, Joe couldn’t possibly have redeemed points that hadn’t been loaded on his account yet.

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Bally’s Race to the Bottom

Never able to resist the sight of an open mike, Bally’s Corp. Chairman Soo Kim has been doing interviews Down Under, on the subject of his acquisition (at a rock-bottom price) of troubled Star Entertainment. The results were even more dismaying than one feared. Kim’s message to Australia about Star: “Everything you knew is over.” Kim told the Sydney Morning Herald that “the company’s luxury casinos will need to lose some of the glitz and glamour as they start life over from scratch.” That’s right. He’s going to reinvent the company’s three state-of-the-art casinos as—Guess what?—grind joints.

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Gloom, Doom & Atlantic City

Today’s S&G is written with a heavy heart, as we have little good news to impart. At least there was a mixed signal from New Jersey. Gamblers went to Atlantic City less … but played online more. Terrestrial casinos were down 3.5% to $231 million, whilst iGaming was up 23.5% to $244 million, outgrossing Atlantic City for the second straight month, as the Garden City casino industry consumes its own tail. Mind you, traditional casinos got left out of much of the iGaming action, dominated as it was by DraftKings (25%) and FanDuel (21.5%) with BetMGM (22%) sandwiched in between. Good news for Bally’s Corp.: It garnered 2.5% of the action, giving them something to crow about at the impending earnings call, still TBA.

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