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Don
Don
Jan 19, 2014
12:30pm
Block User
Quote
Originally posted by: pjstroh
ANd I continue to enjoy Don Diego's entertaining Orwellian metaphors when the government requires people to buy things they don't want to...like health insurance....or auto insurance...or homeowners insurance... oh wait, its just one of those. Yeah, that's kinda awkward too.

For the record DonDiego does want to buy health insurance and auto insurance and homeowners insurance.
In fact, DonDiego does buy health insurance and auto insurance and homeowners insurance.

What DonDiego does not want to buy is one-size-fits-all health insurance from the Government abomination called Obamacare [n.b. DonDiego knows it's actually the Affordable Care Act, but forkushV insisted DonDiego employ the term "Obamacare", . . . and now DonDiego sorta likes using it.]
There are lots of reasons: i. Because the Government is incompetent, sufficiently incompetent that it awarded multi-hundred-million-dollar contracts to incompetent corporations to develop the program; ii. Because DonDiego's physician quit his practice last year, because of the impending Obamacare burdens; iii. Because DonDiego will never see a subsidy the policies offered are competitive neither in coverage nor price; iv. Because insurance companies may find involvement in Obamacare sufficiently unprofitable as to lead them to raise premiums on, say, DonDiego's current policy; v. Because if Obamacare is as screwed-up as it currently seems [transparency not being a quality often found in the present Administration and particularly regarding Obamacare matters] the entire health insurance community may be corrupted for years; vi. Obamacare is designated by Law to be deficit neutral; it will not remain deficit neutral.

item i. Auto Insurance
__No one who does not own or drive an automobile is required to purchase automobile insurance.
__Everyone who does own/drive an automobile is not required to purchase auto insurance by a Government.
__And those who are required to purchase auto insurance by the States are required only to purchase liability insurance, with minimum required coverage set by the individual States, so as to cover personal injuries and property damage which the driver may inflict on others accidentally.
__Those automobile owners who have borrowed money to purchase an automobile are typically required by the lienholder to insure the vehicle to satisfy the lien if the vehicle were lost or destroyed.
__The price of automobile insurance is based upon the value of the automobile, the driver's history, and other pertinent statistical factors, . . . just like real insurance.

item ii. Homeowners Insurance
__A homeowner typically is not required to purchase home insurance by the Government.
__Those homeowners who have borrowed money to purchase a home are typically required to insure the home to satisfy the lien if the home were damaged/destroyed. The Government may be involved in home loans in which a lienholder requires such insurance.
__The price of the homeowners insurance is based upon the value of the home and other pertinent statistical factors, . . . just like real insurance.

item iii. Obamacare
__Obamacare is the first time the Federal Government has required every citizen to purchase something, and defined that something so that the citizen may pay for provisions from which the citizen will never benefit.
__The [final] price of Obamacare is based upon the income of the purchaser and two statistical factors, age and cigarette smoking of the insured, . . . just like a government income redistribution plan.

Obamacare is unique, . . . really it is.
pjstroh
pjstroh
Jan 19, 2014
1:00pm
Block User
Quote
Originally posted by: DonDiego
Quote
Originally posted by: pjstroh
ANd I continue to enjoy Don Diego's entertaining Orwellian metaphors when the government requires people to buy things they don't want to...like health insurance....or auto insurance...or homeowners insurance... oh wait, its just one of those. Yeah, that's kinda awkward too.

For the record DonDiego does want to buy health insurance and auto insurance and homeowners insurance.
In fact, DonDiego does buy health insurance and auto insurance and homeowners insurance.

What DonDiego does not want to buy is one-size-fits-all health insurance from the Government abomination called Obamacare [n.b. DonDiego knows it's actually the Affordable Care Act, but forkushV insisted DonDiego employ the term "Obamacare", . . . and now DonDiego sorta likes using it.]
There are lots of reasons: i. Because the Government is incompetent, sufficiently incompetent that it awarded multi-hundred-million-dollar contracts to incompetent corporations to develop the program; ii. Because DonDiego's physician quit his practice last year, because of the impending Obamacare burdens; iii. Because DonDiego will never see a subsidy the policies offered are competitive neither in coverage nor price; iv. Because insurance companies may find involvement in Obamacare sufficiently unprofitable as to lead them to raise premiums on, say, DonDiego's current policy; v. Because if Obamacare is as screwed-up as it currently seems [transparency not being a quality often found in the present Administration and particularly regarding Obamacare matters] the entire health insurance community may be corrupted for years; vi. Obamacare is designated by Law to be deficit neutral; it will not remain deficit neutral.

item i. Auto Insurance
__No one who does not own or drive an automobile is required to purchase automobile insurance.
__Everyone who does own/drive an automobile is not required to purchase auto insurance by a Government.
__And those who are required to purchase auto insurance by the States are required only to purchase liability insurance, with minimum required coverage set by the individual States, so as to cover personal injuries and property damage which the driver may inflict on others accidentally.
__Those automobile owners who have borrowed money to purchase an automobile are typically required by the lienholder to insure the vehicle to satisfy the lien if the vehicle were lost or destroyed.
__The price of automobile insurance is based upon the value of the automobile, the driver's history, and other pertinent statistical factors, . . . just like real insurance.

item ii. Homeowners Insurance
__A homeowner typically is not required to purchase home insurance by the Government.
__Those homeowners who have borrowed money to purchase a home are typically required to insure the home to satisfy the lien if the home were damaged/destroyed. The Government may be involved in home loans in which a lienholder requires such insurance.
__The price of the homeowners insurance is based upon the value of the home and other pertinent statistical factors, . . . just like real insurance.

item iii. Obamacare
__Obamacare is the first time the Federal Government has required every citizen to purchase something, and defined that something so that the citizen may pay for provisions from which the citizen will never benefit.
__The [final] price of Obamacare is based upon the income of the purchaser and two statistical factors, age and cigarette smoking of the insured, . . . just like a government income redistribution plan.

Obamacare is unique, . . . really it is.



Don Diego says "Everyone who does own/drive an automobile is not required to purchase auto insurance by a Government".
Wikipedia says otherwise

Don Diego says "__Obamacare is the first time the Federal Government has required every citizen to purchase something, and defined that something so that the citizen may pay for provisions from which the citizen will never benefit."
pjstroh syas..."I kinda think Medicare falls in that boat. And citizens don't benefit from having health insurance? How is that possible? Did Don Diego discover the fountain of youth? "

Don Diego says.."__The [final] price of Obamacare is based upon the income of the purchaser and two statistical factors, age and cigarette smoking of the insured, . . . just like a government income redistribution plan."
pjstroh says...."What system did Don Diego subscribe to prior to Obamacare that did not discriminate against customers? PRE ACA: In addition to charging smokers and older people more money it also charged women more money. And if you were unfortunate enough to have a preexisiting condition they could just stiff arm you altogether even if you had the means to buy insurance. Obamacare is exponentially less discriminatory than Don Diegocare
BobOrme
BobOrme
Jan 19, 2014
2:41pm
Block User
Quote
Originally posted by: pjstroh
In addition to charging smokers...more money...."
Tobacco products are taxed at a higher rate than any other consumer product. Smokers should be getting rebates to fund their heath insurance!

Quote
Originally posted by: pjstrohObamacare is exponentially less discriminatory than Don Diegocare

It discriminates against people who don't want to buy it under penalty of law. That includes people of every stripe. It discriminates based on income. More people are being signed up for Medicaid than are buying new health insurance policies. What was it you've been saying about placing burdens on taxpayers?

drmilled
drmilled
Jan 19, 2014
9:39pm
Block User
Some people, usually liberals, cannot see the forest for the trees. Obamacare an abomination, flawed, and patently illegal. When the egotistic Socialist Obama leaves office, hopefully the new administration will abolish Obamacare. It is proven to be a joke that no one finds amusing - just like it's namesake.

Don
Don
Jan 20, 2014
12:08am
Block User
Quote
Originally posted by: pjstroh
Don Diego says "Everyone who does own/drive an automobile is not required to purchase auto insurance by a Government".
Wikipedia says otherwise
Wikipedia is mistaken.

However, Wikipedia does lead the reader to the truth:
(1)click on reference #19 in the Wikipedia article, this will take one to an article entitled Car Insurance Requirements
(2)click on the final "Related Article" on this page; one will find oneself at a page entitled State Financial Responsibility Laws.
(3)read: "In some states, one can comply with their state's financial responsibility laws in other ways than buying car insurance. Every state is different, but some ways to comply is by surety or real estate bond."

Quote
Originally posted by: pjstroh
Don Diego says "__Obamacare is the first time the Federal Government has required every citizen to purchase something, and defined that something so that the citizen may pay for provisions from which the citizen will never benefit."
pjstroh syas..."I kinda think Medicare falls in that boat. And citizens don't benefit from having health insurance? How is that possible? Did Don Diego discover the fountain of youth? "

DonDiego suggests pjstroh enroll in a course in Reading Comprehension.
Under Obamacare every citizen is required to purchase insurance from an insurance company to which he pays a fee. Under Medicare the Government taxes its citizens' incomes to enroll them involuntarily in a Federal Insurance program after they attain age 65; incidentally, more physicians are not accepting "Medicare Patients", as the reimbursement may not cover their costs.
For the record DonDiego would have gladly rejected enrollment in Medicare and Social Security and forsworn any benefits of the programs if he had been permitted to do so, but he was required by Law to participate. He will now accept any and all benefits which he can grab.

Of course citizens benefit from health insurance; that is why DonDiego buys it. DonDiego was referring to "those provisions from which some citizens will not benefit, but for which they must pay" - like pediatric vision care insurance provisions for which a 65-year-old must pay in the new, improved Obamacare-World.
A voluntary insurance environment permits different citizens to purchase different coverages based upon individual insurance needs.

Quote
Originally posted by: pjstroh
Don Diego says.."__The [final] price of Obamacare is based upon the income of the purchaser and two statistical factors, age and cigarette smoking of the insured, . . . just like a government income redistribution plan."
pjstroh says...."What system did Don Diego subscribe to prior to Obamacare that did not discriminate against customers? PRE ACA: In addition to charging smokers and older people more money it also charged women more money. And if you were unfortunate enough to have a preexisiting condition they could just stiff arm you altogether even if you had the means to buy insurance. Obamacare is exponentially less discriminatory than Don Diegocare
Ahh, . . . "discrimination"! ! !, . . . the new last refuge of the scoundrel.
"Real" insurance does discriminate; it discriminates based upon statistically accurate predictions of costs related to certain identifiable behavioral/physical factors.
However, it does not necessarily "discriminate against customers".
Some factors raise costs, some factors lower costs; so discrimination costs some and favors others. That's life.
Some of these factors are voluntary, like not smoking; a non-smoker pays less, because statistically he will cost the insurer less.
Some of these factors are involuntary like being a woman or being old. Such unfortunates pay more, because statistically they will cost the insurer more.
A "pre-existing condition" actually removes the value of the basis for pricing all "real" insurance - statistical evaluation. A pre-existing condition will raise costs. PERIOD. [As He-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed says when he really means something, . . . or when he is lying about something.] "Insurance" is not the proper solution to paying for pre-exisiting conditions.

pjstroh
pjstroh
Jan 20, 2014
2:21am
Block User
Uh...so Don Diego shows the same link I showed which demonstrates how states require its citizens to purchase something they may or may not want...but then somehow its different...er something...whatever. I invite posters to make heads or tails out of it.

And discrimination is ok by the provisions that Don Diego finds acceptable to choose winners and losers. Just not by income. Oh, ok. I'll point Don Diego to all the provisions in the Federal Tax code that discriminate on income which allows people like Mitt Romney to pay lower tax rates than me. But lets not get off topic.

And as for requiring people to pay for the provisions they dont need in Obamacare....thats how you eliminate discrimination (presuming thats something you object to...Don Diego's post outlines when he thinks its ok and when it isn't). If one believes women should pay more for insurance because they have a uterus and give birth then health insurance should follow Don Diego's formula....if one finds that unfair then Obamacare is a better model. People are free to make up their own minds. I'm perfectly happy to disagree with Don Diego on this front.
marcisdave
marcisdave
Jan 20, 2014
3:17am
Block User
Quote
Originally posted by: drmilled
Some people, usually liberals, cannot see the forest for the trees. Obamacare an abomination, flawed, and patently illegal. When the egotistic Socialist Obama leaves office, hopefully the new administration will abolish Obamacare. It is proven to be a joke that no one finds amusing - just like it's namesake.


"hopefully the new administration will abolish Obamacare" ? LMFAO !!!

I don't think Hillary's administration will be abolishing the ACA !


I got news for ya Doc. You, and your criminal RichThugLican Party, are going to be dragging your tail between your legs come 2016 !
Don
Don
Jan 20, 2014
3:44am
Block User
Quote
Originally posted by: pjstroh
Uh...so Don Diego shows the same link I showed which demonstrates how states require its citizens to purchase something they may or may not want...but then somehow its different...er something...whatever. I invite posters to make heads or tails out of it.

ANSWER 1: pjstroh misstates the issue. pjstroh had stated that Wikipedia disagreed with DonDiego's assertion that "not every driver had to purchase automobile insurance." This is so, and Wikipedia is wrong.
". . . one can comply with their state's financial responsibility laws in other ways than buying car insurance.
Ref: State Financial Responsibility Laws.

Quote
Originally posted by: pjstroh
And discrimination is ok by the provisions that Don Diego finds acceptable to choose winners and losers. Just not by income. Oh, ok. I'll point Don Diego to all the provisions in the Federal Tax code that discriminate on income which allows people like Mitt Romney to pay lower tax rates than me. But lets not get off topic.

ANSWER 2: It has nothing to do with what DonDiego finds acceptable; it has to do with the fundamentals of insurance. Discrimination in price based upon well-understood statistical factors pertinent to the enrollment of prospective customers is an essential aspect of insurance.
EXAMPLE: Automobile insurance companies are permitted to charge higher premiums to teenage drivers with multiple driving violations. Such a policy discriminates in favor of middle-aged drivers with excellent driving records.

Quote
Originally posted by: pjstroh
And as for requiring people to pay for the provisions they dont need in Obamacare....thats how you eliminate discrimination (presuming thats something you object to...Don Diego's post outlines when he thinks its ok and when it isn't). If one believes women should pay more for insurance because they have a uterus and give birth then health insurance should follow Don Diego's formula....if you think that is unfair then Obamacare is a better model.

See "ANSWER 2", above.

Quote
Originally posted by: pjstroh
People are free to make up their own minds. I'm perfectly happy to disagree with Don Diego on this front.

DonDiego is horrified.
Ha, ha, ha! Actually DonDiego is not horrified. He recognizes that pjstroh opposes discrimination in favor of males who do not posses a uterus or give birth based upon lifetime medical cost statistics compared to females who do posses a uterus and, at least possibly, give birth.


Summary:
Of course insurance companies discriminate; that's how they determine the appropriate rates to charge for different customers. But it is not personal; it is based upon statistically recognized factors which contribute to costs expected over the long term. It is not "picking winners and losers"; it is pricing according to statistical expectations.
[The automobile example is clearer and evokes less emotion than the healthcare example. Does pjstroh believe that insurers should charge the same price for an identical accident policy issued to a 17-year-old male with 2 moving violations and, presumably, raging hormones, on-the-prowl for an open-minded female in his Camaro in California as they charge to a married middle-aged father of 2 in Omaha driving a Camry?]

Obamacare does not discriminate in this way, in the way to which pjstroh objects.
__It does discriminate by charging everyone the same [with the exception of the young and smokers], . . . thereby explicitly picking winners [e.g. those who do posses uteri] and losers [e.g. those who do not posses uteri].
__It also discriminates by requiring every purchaser to buy one-fits-all policies, thereby pick winners [e,g, those fertile folks who may require maternity care] and losers [e.g. aged folks unlikely to produce offspring].
__It further discriminates by subsidizing those with lower incomes, . . . again explicitly and overtly picking winners and losers.

DonDiego is seldom perfectly happy. He envies pjstroh.
And DonDiego recognizes and, in fact, welcomes differences of opinion. He trusts that pjstroh will acknowledge that discrimination one-way-or-another is gonna happen with respect to this matter.
DonDiego prefers discrimination based upon legitimate economic reasons, . . . higher expected costs lead to higher insurance premiums.
pjstroh prefers discrimination based on some sorta Government notion of fairness and redistribution of incomes and politics.
Different strokes for different folks.
drmilled
drmilled
Jan 20, 2014
3:45am
Block User
I feel sorry for you, marcusdave, and all of America if what you say and believe becomes reality. Obtuse- the only word to describe you.
chefantwon
chefantwon
Jan 20, 2014
10:09am
Block User
Pj, Auto insurance in most states is flexible. You have a minimum standard one has to have (this includes bonds that are set aside in leiu of auto insurance). Obama Care states EVERY BODY has to be covered for:

breast exams, abortions, birth control (pills, iud's, diaphrams, etc), annual pap smears, pelvic exams just to name a few.

FYI men can't have abortions, currently no pills have been approved by the FDA for male birth control, as DD mentioned, males don't have vaginas or uteruses, and men can't have babies.

Btw, auto insurance has different rates for males AND females, single AND married, old AND young drivers. Each has a different rate based upon risk, unlike the Obama Care regs.

Oh, Planned Parenthood still won't test males for STD's, ONLY women.... and we pay for this?
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